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Thread: ***Official*** Religious Discussion Thread

  1. #2731
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    Disagree with this, particularly when you are potentially talking life/death poverty/medical situations. The idea that missionaries go in to help others is fine. But if they threaten to withhold those services then they may as well not go at all, of course if you don't give a damn about your religion/culture you may just want the help anyway. Does not stop it being coercive.
    Withholding free services is not coercion.
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  2. #2732
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Withholding free services is not coercion.
    The services are not free if they have conditions attached to them.... free does not just mean money.
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  3. #2733
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    The services are not free if they have conditions attached to them.... free does not just mean money.
    Okay, you're making an argument that things shouldn't be allowed to be priced in terms of religious conversions. Not obviously wrong. There are lots of things we don't want things to be priced in terms of, like ***.

    Should it be illegal though? It's for the people to figure out which is more valuable, isn't it?
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  4. #2734
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Okay, you're making an argument that things shouldn't be allowed to be priced in terms of religious conversions. Not obviously wrong. There are lots of things we don't want things to be priced in terms of, like ***.

    Should it be illegal though? It's for the people to figure out which is more valuable, isn't it?
    I'm not arguing whether it should be made illegal.... I`m saying it is coercion; forcing people to choose between survival or change their religion when the people making the demands need not ask that, it is wrong for me; Yes, there are other forms of coercion and payment in the world that is also morally wrong, from my point of view. I am aware that the world is not ideal and sometimes sacrifices need to be made to survive; and it is not the first time or the last that this sort of thing has and will happen. But none of that makes it right.


  5. #2735
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    I'm not arguing whether it should be made illegal.... I`m saying it is coercion; forcing people to choose between survival or change their religion when the people making the demands need not ask that, it is wrong for me; Yes, there are other forms of coercion and payment in the world that is also morally wrong, from my point of view. I am aware that the world is not ideal and sometimes sacrifices need to be made to survive; and it is not the first time or the last that this sort of thing has and will happen. But none of that makes it right.
    Would you call it coercion if they asked them to choose between survival and money?

    If yes, do hospitals coerce their patients?

  6. #2736
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    Disagree with this, particularly when you are potentially talking life/death poverty/medical situations. The idea that missionaries go in to help others is fine. But if they threaten to withhold those services then they may as well not go at all, of course if you don't give a damn about your religion/culture you may just want the help anyway. Does not stop it being coercive.
    Cheers. Now I see how they coerce with gifts which I wasn't understanding. I don't understand how missionaries live with their hypocracy though. Did Jesus demand the Samaritan convert before he helped him?
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  7. #2737
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Would you call it coercion if they asked them to choose between survival and money?

    If yes, do hospitals coerce their patients?
    Well I'm somebody that believes in free medical care, so it is a difficult subject for me..... but I`m also somebody who believes if you have the resources to maintain your own medical aid then you should, because I understand there is practical realities relating to money with regards to medical care for all etc. So it always becomes a situation, that yes I believe that if you can save somebody's life even if they can't pay, you should not demand that they give you a kidney or in this case change religion in return.

    These missionaries don't pay for the services they offer, they collect money through charities. Just as most governments collect via taxes, to try provide a minimum health care service. It would be no different if you had a situation where a doctor demanded *** from a mother of a child who needed an operation, because she could not pay; more extreme than asking somebody give up their religion, but coercive nonetheless. People always have a choice in every decision they make but some choices have greater repercussions than others and that gets used against people everyday.

  8. #2738
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Ian View Post
    Cheers. Now I see how they coerce with gifts which I wasn't understanding. I don't understand how missionaries live with their hypocracy though. Did Jesus demand the Samaritan convert before he helped him?
    The bible does demand that you convert, many religions do... and it does not say that you can not use whatever means possible. I`m not even saying that the missionaries are not within there right, from their beliefs to do it. I'm just saying that it is coercive. Missionaries have been doing this for many years.

  9. #2739
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    I guess my issue is with the idea of 'converting' people. It is all an excercise for the heart, not the lips. All you can do is preach the message. You can not know you have converted anyone. They can be paying you lip service for services or just to shut you up but their hearts are not in it. This idea that you go around and need to hear it from their mouths is just silly. It really is. I'd like a better read of where the bible says this too. Far too many times, what people say is in the bible is only there through contrived interpretations.

    Completely unrelated, that gif of yours always gets me looking at it almost hypnotically. If it comes from a website, I'd love to read up on the formula behind it. I have spent many wasteful moments wondering what other patterns different speeds of those two points yield.

  10. #2740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Ian View Post
    I guess my issue is with the idea of 'converting' people. It is all an excercise for the heart, not the lips. All you can do is preach the message. You can not know you have converted anyone. They can be paying you lip service for services or just to shut you up but their hearts are not in it. This idea that you go around and need to hear it from their mouths is just silly. It really is. I'd like a better read of where the bible says this too. Far too many times, what people say is in the bible is only there through contrived interpretations.

    Completely unrelated, that gif of yours always gets me looking at it almost hypnotically. If it comes from a website, I'd love to read up on the formula behind it. I have spent many wasteful moments wondering what other patterns different speeds of those two points yield.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid

    It's a lot of fun, I remember writing a formula to trace one of those curves on a graph plotting site too.
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  11. #2741
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Ian View Post
    Completely unrelated, that gif of yours always gets me looking at it almost hypnotically. If it comes from a website, I'd love to read up on the formula behind it. I have spent many wasteful moments wondering what other patterns different speeds of those two points yield.
    Pentagram of Venus.... 5 lobe petal.

    https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com...gram-of-venus/
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  12. #2742
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    Pentagram of Venus.... 5 lobe petal.

    https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com...gram-of-venus/
    That's even better than just a formula. Space is amazing in the coincidences that occur.
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