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Thread: ***Official*** Religious Discussion Thread

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    No such debate in mainstream Pakistan at all. All of it is very very underground in Pakistan.
    Why 'very very underground'? Why not a bit underground instead?

  2. #152
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    A facinating 'open letter' Ankitj that clarifies much of the dialogue in this thread. Thanks.
    Haven't read the whole thread. Is there lot of apologism for religions over here?

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    Haven't read the whole thread. Is there lot of apologism for religions over here?
    There appears to be much sympathy for religion, although there is not a lot of sympathy for the word apologetics/apologism as it tends to annoy for some reason.

  4. #154
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    I don't really have sympathy with religion, I just don't agree with the notion that Religion is some independent force that can be defined separately of the people who practice it. Many athiests have this idea that religion is a force we must fight against and that we can eradicate that. This will never happen, it's like the war on terrorism - you can't fight ideas, you can only understand deal with the people who act upon them.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    I don't really have sympathy with religion, I just don't agree with the notion that Religion is some independent force that can be defined separately of the people who practice it. Many athiests have this idea that religion is a force we must fight against and that we can eradicate that. This will never happen, it's like the war on terrorism - you can't fight ideas, you can only understand deal with the people who act upon them.
    I think that most atheists would agree with your first sentence, and disagree with the second.

    Many Atheists have a liking for Science and Scepticism and are therefore bound to question the beliefs and practices of religion. Unfortunately many believers take the questioning personally when it is nothing more than honest debate and inquiry. Something that happens in most lecture halls or political meetings.

    Personally, I do not want religion to completely go away as the 'love/hate relationship' is kind of fun. However, I don't mind if the nasty elelments of religion go away just like everyone else.
    Last edited by watson; 15-11-2014 at 04:25 PM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Many Atheists have a liking for Science and Scepticism and are therefore bound to question the beliefs and practices of religion.
    This basically. An Atheist's critical thought processes are extremely different to mine. Nonetheless the cross over of moral values is extremely tight. They tend to have the same sense of right and wrong and beliefs in the importance of generosity that I do. Just how we arrive at those conclusions is somewhat different.

    Personally I hate having discussions with Sceptics (and I differentiate from atheists as not all atheists are sceptics) about any topic at all. Be it religion, meditation, metaphysics, auras, healing, the power of the sub conscious mind, or ethics. I don't mind discussing politics however for some reason - not really sure why, I think a sceptics approach to politics is probably a healthy one and possibly the only one to have.

    My room mate is a member of sceptics New Zealand. He told me how they define themselves. They believe themselves to be a very open minded group who like to apply a logical approach to problem solving. I then read him the dictionary definition of a sceptic which has a more negative taint to it (those who have a habit of finding a fault with theories basically (don't take me to task on that I am summarising some vague words in the dictionary)) and he was surprised. I find the logic of sceptics equally as frustrating as they find my logic. I tend to be quite happy formulating a theory or belief based on five or six shaky pieces of information that all point the same way while they will want each piece to be concrete.

    Still we all manage to be functional and successful in the world and that is all that counts.

    Do people know what the great commission is by the way...I expect Red Hill will know. It is probably one of the most counter productive parts of the Bible. It basically challenges you to become fishers of men. Taken at face value, and many people do take it face value, it encourages people to preach on street corners and knock on doors. This has been Christianity's worst move. People hate having religion shoved down their throat and it makes religious people appear to be forceful at best or not all there at worst.

    It does trouble me when I do hear from some atheists that they would prefer that religion did not exist (and I realise no one has said that here). Perhaps it is a reaction to being preached at I don't know. But I think atheists advocating the elimination of religion is equivalent to a religious person insisting everyone should be forced to be religious.
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  7. #157
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    Nice post as always Hurricane.

    I've been to a few 'Skeptics in the Pub' meetings in the City and their basic philosophy seems beneficial to me. This is, if faced with having to believe or disbelieve something then the 'Default Setting' should always be disbelief. Therefore, skeptics will invariably ask the person or group making a specific claim to justify or prove their claim. There's nothing wrong with that even though it might seem overly 'negative' at first glance.

    Or to put it another way - incredulity should generally be preferred to credulity.
    Last edited by watson; 16-11-2014 at 02:50 AM.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Many Atheists have a liking for Science and Scepticism and are therefore bound to question the beliefs and practices of religion. Unfortunately many believers take the questioning personally when it is nothing more than honest debate and inquiry. Something that happens in most lecture halls or political meetings.
    While I agree with this statement, that doesn't clash with what wellAbidarned said. Fighting religion will not stop people from reacting this way. If you want people to be logical, rational, impartial sceptics, you should address that, instead of developing a beef with religion.

  9. #159
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  10. #160
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  11. #161
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    I am not surprised. It's a ploy to hold on to power by the Saudi Monarchy.

  12. #162
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Since the word Islamophobia was used in the Paris Shooting thread, and it was correctly pointed out that that was not the thread for religious discussion, I am posting this article which is relevant.

    The Phobia of Being Called Islamophobic*|*Ali A. Rizvi

    For decades, Muslims around the world have rightly complained about the Israeli government labeling even legitimate criticism of its policies "anti-Semitic," effectively shielding itself from accountability. Today, Muslim organizations like CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) have borrowed a page from their playbook with the "Islamophobia" label -- and taken it even further.

    In addition to calling out prejudice against Muslims (a people), the term "Islamophobia" seeks to shield Islam itself (an ideology) from criticism. It's as if every time you said smoking was a filthy habit, you were perceived to be calling all smokers filthy people. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. But when did we start extending those rights to ideas, books, and beliefs? You'd think the difference would be clear, but it isn't. The ploy has worked over and over again, and now everyone seems petrified of being tagged with this label.
    Basically, I think the word "Islamophobia" is an intellectually dishonest concept. It's a trick to silent critics of Islam or any of its manifestations (which is by no means a critic of all followers of Islam). No one should be able to guilt trip you for expressing your opinion on a religion as long as you are not advocating hate against a community. If Islamophobia is a thing, then communismphobia should be a thing too.

    PS. I am sorry if my posting hurts anyone's feelings, but I don't believe in treating matters of religion with kids gloves. I am harsh and I hit a hard punch. Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher are my idols in that regard.
    Last edited by ankitj; 07-01-2015 at 05:25 PM.

  13. #163
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    Islamaphobia refers to the irrational hatred of all the people who practise the religion of Islam using the actions of a few extremists as justification while conveniently ignoring the fact that Islamic beliefs, like any religion, vary greatly from believer to believer.

    It's nothing to do with "silencing critics of islam". It's about calling out ****ty generalisations.
    Last edited by wellAlbidarned; 07-01-2015 at 05:46 PM.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    I am not surprised. It's a ploy to hold on to power by the Saudi Monarchy.
    Yep

    Saudi Monarchy owes its position to ultra-conservative minority so feel the need to appease them from time to time by introducing a radical policy

    Generally harmless as they are rarely acted upon

  15. #165
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    islamophobia has more to do with "kill all muslims!" (which i have seen three times today) and "deport all muslims!" (which i have seen twice) more than anything else
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