The American Politics thread

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by Cevno

Again i threw know accusations at you about you advocating policies(though i can have a debate on some contentious policies too, but rather not here) but was talking about laughing at his beliefs and calling him deluded and about it being anyone's business etc..

You said:

Originally Posted by Cevno

Don't think how you can take the moral high ground and say that he is trying to force his beliefs on you, but your are not then?

That's an accusation. You are equating my political positions with his in that we are both trying to 'force' our beliefs on other people. I asked you what belief I would want legislated into law that would prevent other people from living their lives. You gave none.

Originally Posted by Cevno

As for specifics when i give them you choose to ignore them, sideline them or change the debate into something else to what i am trying to say. In any case rather than going on with this, have to agree to disagree.

Then I asked you to give more than that one of Obama showing his ignorance in matters of knowledge when you said there were "just as many" instances as compared to Cain (Cain already having multiple moments where he clearly showed his ignorance on policy matters). You were unable to provide any more.

Then I asked you to provide an example of somehow the left moving more to the left on policy issues, as a counter example to my specific policy statements where Republicans have clearly moved to the right, and Democrats have also moved to the right by advocating policies that were designed and defended by Republicans. You gave no specific policies.

Can you quote any of the specific instances where you did give such a policy and I ignored you? The only specific policy you mentioned in response to my questions was something about bailouts as somehow an example of Republicans moving to the left, which I specifically addressed and showed why that is incorrect (e.g it used to be a policy that both parties supported and now Republicans do not - yet another example of the right wing movement of the party).

[silentstriker]

Look, I am not expecting you to be well versed on the specific of US policy (just like I am not well versed on Indian politics) but if you're going to throw out things like how a person forcing someone to change the way they live to anything I'm doing, I think you should be able to point it out. Them saying a gay person can't be married or serve in the military would be akin to me saying that a Christian can't baptise their child or that they can't become a judge (or anything like that) because their religion would bias their judgement. I question his motives and his logic based on what I think might be ridiculous beliefs (and he is allowed to think that gay people are xyz as well), but the difference is that he wants to then restrict how they live, while I would never in a million years propose any restriction on people worshipping or believing whatever they wish as long as no harm is done to anyone else. So yea, you're damn right I'm taking the moral high ground there.

[Spark]

Originally Posted by Cevno

In terms of economics extreme left is communism , if you discount the lunatic/violent fringes.

As is anarchism, which is a very different ideology.

In U.S that kind of left wing sentiment does not exist, i guess. So in those terms you are right that their center has been towards the right for a large duration now and thus it being almost the most free market country the definition of left would be more right than the normal than most other countries, i guess.

I don't think we should derive the centre from the existence or absence of extremes though.

In terms of non economic issues though, i don't think their political centre is towards the right though. Many worst examples of extreme right wing around the world. I still feel on those terms their politics may have moved towards the right in recent times, but still the general public opinion is closer to center than right or left. Though those issues most of the time tend to be portrayed as Black and White most times, which i don't believe is the case.

It is. Go have a detailed analysis of their economic positions of both parties - especially when it comes to government involvement in the economic workings of their country.

In short Obama is just about left of center and Romney right of center in american terms for me.

Have a look at standard poli-sci definitions. Obama is definitely centre-right. A genuinely centre-left politician would never have put up the half-baked version of UHC he did.

[Cevno]

@SS -
Again you are mixing up all kinds of issues there. I was talking about something else in relation to freedom of religion and beliefs and you mix it up with something else. I give you 3 examples and then you chose to ignore them or give explanations which i completely disagree with, and i say i can't agree with that and then you claim that i don't go into specifics. Just because you disagree with the examples based on some reasons i really find strange, doesn't mean that those aren't examples or going into specifics.

And now coming to the point though i am on your side of the fence on most of these issues you keep bringing up, i can also accept the right for someone to have a dissenting/opposite opinion on most of these issues as they are still contentious on many counts and certainly not black and white. While you can't. Instead of going on with bringing up 100 different issues and then associating all of them with the same issue again due to positions of some elements of the party on that, should rather agree to disagree here. You have brought up atleast 4 different debates in the above 2 posts, and though you may seem them as one i certainly don't as it all needs to be broken down into pieces.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by Spark

As is anarchism, which is a very different ideology.

Not sure you can even put Anarchism in either left or right in a a organised adminstration context.

I don't think we should derive the centre from the existence or absence of extremes though.

Yeah, but then U.S in terms of economic issues in the world context has always been more towards the right. Unless forced towards the left like with the recession.

It is. Go have a detailed analysis of their economic positions of both parties - especially when it comes to government involvement in the economic workings of their country.

Was talking about the non economic issues in that paragraph.

Have a look at standard poli-sci definitions. Obama is definitely centre-right. A genuinely centre-left politician would never have put up the half-baked version of UHC he did.

Would a more baked version have passed though?

A center to right or even more right politician would never propose that in any case if you look at it that way. A half baked version is still more towards the left than the right.

In any case even a center of left or a centrist politician can take positions sometimes on the right on some issues. And as for Pol SCi definitions i have seen both Obama and Romney being mentioned as Center of right in different sites and news organisation, but i don't see how both are possible.
The fight seems to be for the center or center of right space in the USA right now and everyone wants to portray themselves in that space.

[Quaggas]

Originally Posted by Adamc

Hotelling's law doesn't apply to US politics that much as voting isn't compulsory. Candidates can do well by appealing to those most likely to vote (seniors, if The Simpsons is to be believed) rather than the voting age population as a whole. In comparison the major parties in Australia (where compulsory voting is enforced) have relatively much more similar political positions.

"That much" is the operative phrase. You still need a more compelling story to dispel the notion of a uniform distribution for actual voters. Talking about the actual election, not the primaries, btw.

Australian politics is blander than the stuff we have here, eh?

[Spark]

Originally Posted by Cevno

Not sure you can even put Anarchism in either left or right in a a organised adminstration context.

You can, and it's very easy to do so. Anarcho-syndicalism at least.

Yeah, but then U.S in terms of economic issues in the world context has always been more towards the right. Unless forced towards the left like with the recession.

That's true, but doesn't that sort of back up my point?

There's absolutely no doubt that there's been a rightwards shift in some factors, such as on climate change etc.

Would a more baked version have passed though?

A center to right or even more right politician would never propose that in any case if you look at it that way. A half baked version is still more towards the left than the right.

That he still advocated it makes him centre-right. Sometimes you are forced into positions rather than have them by your own volition, but it's still your position. It's still his policy.

In any case even a center of left or a centrist politician can take positions sometimes on the right on some issues. And as for Pol SCi definitions i have seen both Obama and Romney being mentioned as Center of right in different sites and news organisation, but i don't see how both are possible.
The fight seems to be for the center or center of right space in the USA right now and everyone wants to portray themselves in that space.

Obama is centre right. Romney is further right. This is fairly standard polisci analysis here, nothing groundbreaking.

[Spark]

Originally Posted by Quaggas

"That much" is the operative phrase. You still need a more compelling story to dispel the notion of a uniform distribution for actual voters. Talking about the actual election, not the primaries, btw.

Australian politics is blander than the stuff we have here, eh?

We do our best...

[_Ed_]

Originally Posted by Spark

Obama is centre right. Romney is further right. This is fairly standard polisci analysis here, nothing groundbreaking.

Yeah. It's pretty straightforward, really.

[Quaggas]

Originally Posted by Spark

We do our best...

Good thing, too. Less frightening than the type of stuff that I'm used to from Africa.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by Spark

You can, and it's very easy to do so. Anarcho-syndicalism at least.

Anarcho - Syndacalism maybe if organised to some extent but then it's principles maybe similar to Communism in any case.Anarchy by definition is not categorized in policy terms. Though, it may vary from situation to situation.

That's true, but doesn't that sort of back up my point?

There's absolutely no doubt that there's been a rightwards shift in some factors, such as on climate change etc.

But there has been a lot of movement in terms of what became centrist to the left too with the recession too on some issues.

Also i am not sure how it backs up your point because i agreed with you that they have always been to center of the right in economic issues in terms of world positions. But then in that context what has been has traditionally seen as left there is different to other countries. And if you are not viewing it from a U.S.A context in terms of non economic issues too it has to be viewed from the world context and what is being described as right wing/extreme right wing here is more towards the center than people are mentioning in those terms.

As for Climate change, it is still a evolving issue and certainly not black and white so positions may vary from time to time.

That he still advocated it makes him centre-right. Sometimes you are forced into positions rather than have them by your own volition, but it's still your position. It's still his policy.

I'm not still sure how even a half baked UHC is more towards the right than the left though?

If full baked UHC is leftist then that doesn't mean half baked becomes rightist.

Obama is centre right. Romney is further right. This is fairly standard polisci analysis here, nothing groundbreaking.

Daily Kos: President Obama is not a center right President

This is interesting because i was watching a show here a few days ago and Obama was mentioned as center and center left and Romney as center right by a democrat strategist himself.

[_Ed_]

Originally Posted by Cevno

Daily Kos: President Obama is not a center right President

I haven't heard of that website. What credentials does 'drhoosierdem' have?

[Spark]

I would take Dem strategists and Obama card-carriers about as seriously as I do far-right tea partiers when it comes to an objective political analysis.

I won't go in detail, but briefly:



He's moved further right since then.

[Burgey]

Obama is the best political orator since Reagan, arguably since Kennedy

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by _Ed_

I haven't heard of that website. What credentials does 'drhoosierdem' have?

Don't know tbh to be exacts but is somewhat inolved democrat it seems and quite popular.

In any case the point is not him but many of the things that he mentioned.

If those things are center right, then would be interesting to know what you consider center left in american terms?

And that is not mentioning the things he hasn't been able to get a approval of both houses on and some that he has had to change to get through. Plus the obvious calls to tax the rich etc....