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Thread: You know what really grinds my gears? II

  1. #8086
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    At my old Uni there were a lot of Chinese students who never mixed with other people and tended to stay together. As a result their English never improved.
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  2. #8087
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Interestingly we're having a discussion about something similar on Facebook and a mate of mine has just told us that at TAFE there are a number of foreign teachers employed as English teachers who get paid half that of an Australian English teachers...incredible if true.
    Last edited by Son Of Coco; 25-05-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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  3. #8088
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    At my old Uni there were a lot of Chinese students who never mixed with other people and tended to stay together. As a result their English never improved.
    It's the main issue I think. The problem is, once you've allowed them into university with a poor level of English then there isn't a lot you can do. Apart from wear out the knees of your jeans keeping them happy so you can take their money.

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  4. #8089
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    I assumed that was the case. It's pretty sad that the quality of education has to suffer to accommodate international students (in some cases) though. Working in an industry, and I use that term loosely, that sees these students on their way to university it's blatantly clear that you're advanced up the educational rung towards university based on the fact you're paying money to be at our school in the first place, and not on the effort you put in to make sure you improve your English and are ready for university.

    I've tried to put students (mainly Saudi men, cause they're as lazy as ****) back down into non-Academic classes as they're never there and when they are they don't do anything. This rarely ever happens because I don't have students, I have customers. The funny thing is, if you do manage to put a student down a level or hold them back, usually they make an attempt to pick up their game. Unfortunately it seems people in charge of schools are too worried they'll lose their dollars, and not concerned enough about actually maintaining a level of educational integrity. Working in the private English sector, I can assure you most involved tip-toe around the students like they're in control of everything that goes on, and have an eye firmly on the bottom line. In my opinion, this does nothing for the students (or the teachers). Case in point is a Chinese guy who apparently won a Dean's Award at UQ for accounting. His English skills consisted of typing something like "Body not good, no work" when he was sick and couldn't come to work...after winning the award he couldn't get a job with an Australian company because he couldn't speak English well enough, so he ended up in Sydney getting underpaid by a Chinese-owned accountancy firm...at the end of the day, we're not doing them any favours by allowing them in. We're just taking their money and sending them on their way. If some demand was made on this bloke to have his English skills up to scratch before he started he might've actually gained some benefit from paying so much money in the first place.

    There are some good students that you see go through too, however I can't imagine I'd be as well-accommodated in other countries if I wanted to go to uni but made little effort to actually learn the language.

    Having said that, I'm sure the fact I'm surrounded by foreign students in the Post Grad course I'm doing at the moment makes it easier for me to get decent marks when I'm studying something I didn't study in my undergraduate degree. So cheers chaps.
    When I went to university in vancouver - I had to group work with students from hong kong. They had no idea of what we had been taught in class and couldn't put one word in front of another on the group project. Strangely when we had to do an individual report i scored 79% and so did they. Only thing is they all looked at each other and giggled when they got their papers handed back out to them so I knew something was up.

    Later I met someone who professionally wrote term papers for money at the university - so I wondered if he was involved with their grades.

    The school started discussing having an interview to get into our faculty. I am not sure if anything came of it.
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  5. #8090
    Cricketer Of The Year Turbinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    The cash international students bring in are absolutely propping-up Australian universities. There's been a massive effort under-way to appeal to non-residents through offering more masters by coursework, lowering the points required for the thesis in a masters by thesis and a big increase in subtly different undergrad courses. It's no coincidence.
    On a slightly unrelated note, this reminds me of a story of a friend of a friend of mine who absolutely ****ed up his undergrad (barely scraped through in meeting the minimum GPA requirement for graduation) and couldn't get a job nor admission into any graduate program here. Then he applied to a couple of grad programs in Australia, someone had suggested this to him because apparently some Australian Universities accept just about anyone.

    After that, he came back to Canada and started working with Oil Futures. After a few years of that, through his contacts, he earned himself a job out in Calgary earning $120,000. And he's only about 27-28.

  6. #8091
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    When I went to university in vancouver - I had to group work with students from hong kong. They had no idea of what we had been taught in class and couldn't put one word in front of another on the group project. Strangely when we had to do an individual report i scored 79% and so did they. Only thing is they all looked at each other and giggled when they got their papers handed back out to them so I knew something was up.

    Later I met someone who professionally wrote term papers for money at the university - so I wondered if he was involved with their grades.

    The school started discussing having an interview to get into our faculty. I am not sure if anything came of it.
    And that's another thing. I've heard something along similar lines. It's supposed to be stamped out, with the end result supposedly being possible expulsion from uni (especially for plagiarism). I try to get it into my student's heads that any copying from anywhere without referencing will get them in trouble. But then I think "will it really?". It depends on how much money the uni wants to lose by kicking out plagiarising foreign students.

    I know at our school (which is a long way away from a uni), students are given 100 chances to **** things up or do the wrong thing before anything is done to make them responsible for their actions. And even then, if anything is done at all.

  7. #8092
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    When I went to university in vancouver - I had to group work with students from hong kong. They had no idea of what we had been taught in class and couldn't put one word in front of another on the group project. Strangely when we had to do an individual report i scored 79% and so did they. Only thing is they all looked at each other and giggled when they got their papers handed back out to them so I knew something was up.

    Later I met someone who professionally wrote term papers for money at the university - so I wondered if he was involved with their grades.

    The school started discussing having an interview to get into our faculty. I am not sure if anything came of it.
    And there it is. No-one willing to do anything about it or proscribe the behaviour in any way despite the fact everyone in the Uni sectors knows students either plagiarise each other or pay someone to do the work for them. Burgeoning industry, tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbinator View Post
    On a slightly unrelated note, this reminds me of a story of a friend of a friend of mine who absolutely ****ed up his undergrad (barely scraped through in meeting the minimum GPA requirement for graduation) and couldn't get a job nor admission into any graduate program here. Then he applied to a couple of grad programs in Australia, someone had suggested this to him because apparently some Australian Universities accept just about anyone.

    After that, he came back to Canada and started working with Oil Futures. After a few years of that, through his contacts, he earned himself a job out in Calgary earning $120,000. And he's only about 27-28.
    Yeah, not surprised. The problem is that the entry requirements have been lowered but the standard of degrees (depending on the Uni, of course) haven't dropped that much so foreign students either fail badly having got here, collude or pay someone. Nobody wins in such a system.
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  8. #8093
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    There's another issue attached to the international student thing, which is markers who are unwilling to be harsh on students from non-english speaking backgrounds if they are seen to be making an effort. I've seen comparable marks given to english speaking students who are generally pretty lazy but produce work of a reasonable standard and international students who are seen to be working against a handicap but trying their best.

    It's reasonable from a teaching standpoint but does tend to produce a fairly low standard of graduate.
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  9. #8094
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't see it as reasonable from a teaching standpoint as I see the students come through our school on their way to uni, and the biggest problem is that a large number of them aren't stopped advancing through the system when the opportunity arises as they're seen as customers who should get what they want, not students who are relying on us advising them on the best way to achieve their goals through English. It's nigh on impossible to remove under-achieving students from your class (even under-attending student are difficult to remove).

    If the system actually did what it advertises then there'd be no need to allow for students who have difficulties understanding what's going on and/or producing decent work in the first place.

    Without sounding too mean, I seriously hope a large number of students who can't keep up or produce the required work actually are failed. I'm a little dubious as to whether this is actually the case if they're paying International fees. I guess where it gets a little muddy for the universities is situations where they've accepted the students as direct entry and then have to deal with the fact they've let them in and then realised they're not coping with the work/capable of doing it well enough.
    Last edited by Son Of Coco; 26-05-2012 at 08:32 AM.

  10. #8095
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    What I mean is that I can see how as a teacher it is easy to be harsh on a student who doesn't give much of a **** as compared to a student who tries hard but has significant barriers to success. Obviously it's not what should happen, however.

    I've seen a lot of people scrape through with a 50 or whatever when they patently don't have the skillset one would expect from a humanities graduate, and that's a real problem.

    And then you have international students who don't try at all, something of a different problem.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 26-05-2012 at 09:13 AM.

  11. #8096
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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  12. #8097
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    I remember a few international students who didn't contribute at all to our group business plan, whilst I spent a few nights up doing it with another guy. All we could do about it was give them a mark on how much they contributed and nothing came of that except them getting exactly the same mark as me.

  13. #8098
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    I remember a few international students who didn't contribute at all to our group business plan, whilst I spent a few nights up doing it with another guy. All we could do about it was give them a mark on how much they contributed and nothing came of that except them getting exactly the same mark as me.
    Sounds like they taught you a lesson in a little something called delegation.
    Last edited by benchmark00; 26-05-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  14. #8099
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Sounds like taught you a lesson in a little something called delegation.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  15. #8100
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Sounds like they taught you a lesson in a little something called delegation.
    We tried to delegate but they didn't put in the work and I wasn't about to fail because of some ****s, so had to do their part as well. You can't really force someone to do the work.



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