Poker

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by Mr Casson

For those who play for real money, what do you feel the step up between play games and the lowest level of actual money games? I can win easily with play money but I expect it's a lot more serious when cash is at stake, but I suppose if your strategies are sound it shouldn't matter?

Low-level cash games have a reasonable enough standard in my experience. You'd never, for example, call a pre-flop re-raise with AJ in a low-level money game, which you might when playing for free. That's a quick way to lose money.

Low-level tournaments have a horrid standard, but the variance is brutal so you'll end up being sucked out by someone shocking a lot of the time anyway.

Personally I love the $5~ heads-up tournaments. The level's just as low as in the other tournaments but they can't get away with their inherent crapness so easily. There's nowhere to hide when you're playing heads-up, and there's no ultra-methodical strategy that decent-but-inexperienced players can revert to.

[Mr Casson]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Low-level tournaments have a horrid standard, but the variance is brutal so you'll end up being sucked out by someone shocking a lot of the time anyway.

This comment interests me, would you care to expand a bit?

[silentstriker]

Example:

I am UTG, about half an hour into a tournament. I haven't played a single hand. I have KK, and a bunch of crazy donks at the table, so I make a big raise (4x BB). I get two callers and the blinds fold.

Flop comes 5 2 8, rainbow. OK, no one has hit that unless they have trips (or A8 or something). I check, one guy bets, the other calls..I don't see any draws that worry me, so I call. Turn is a J. Still good. I bet, the person behind me goes all in, and the other guy goes all in too (!!!). I might have called one all in, but I'm not calling two, cause I'm guessing someone has hit trips (though AJ is obviously a possibility).

I fold. They turn over 28o and 58o respectively. WTF? They both called a big raise from a super tight UTG with 28o and 58o.....


The variance is crazy but if your bankroll is big enough to handle the variance (say enough to enroll in 50 tournaments), you can make a decent return. You just can't get pissed.

[GotSpin]

Low buy in SNGs and MTTs have insanely soft competition but the variance is a massive bitch

Cash is fairly exploitable for quite a few levels

[bryce]

Here's a prime example from the PKR website on the sort of donks that are out there(and there are an awful lot) normally either dumbass impulsive gamblers who have no concept of poker or people on tilt lol.

Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: RING
Money Type: REAL MONEY
Blinds are now $0.02/$0.04
Button is at seat 4
Seat 1: 136benjamin - $0.97
Seat 2: Hafthor - $1.27
Seat 3: m1keabw - $1.75
Seat 4: fishthefishfish - $0.48
Seat 5: Alastagill - $2.14
Seat 6: BenW77 - $3.41
Moving Button to seat 5
BenW77 posts small blind ($0.02)
136benjamin posts big blind ($0.04)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [As Ac] to BenW77
Hafthor folds
m1keabw folds
fishthefishfish calls $0.04
Alastagill calls $0.04
BenW77 raises to $0.36
136benjamin raises to $0.68
fishthefishfish folds
Alastagill folds
BenW77 raises to $3.41 (all-in)
136benjamin calls $0.97 (all-in)
Returning $2.44 to BenW77 uncalled
136benjamin shows [2s 3c]
BenW77 shows [As Ac]
Dealing Flop [3d Qh 2d]
Dealing Turn [6h]
Hafthor laughs his *** off.
BenW77 laughs his *** off.
Alastagill can't believe it.
Dealing River [Js]
Taking Rake of $0.20 from pot 1
BenW77 has One Pair: Aces
136benjamin has Two Pairs: 3s, 2s
136benjamin wins $1.82 with: Two Pairs: 3s, 2s

[sledger]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Example:

I am UTG, about half an hour into a tournament. I haven't played a single hand. I have KK, and a bunch of crazy donks at the table, so I make a big raise (4x BB). I get two callers and the blinds fold.

Flop comes 5 2 8, rainbow. OK, no one has hit that unless they have trips (or A8 or something). I check, one guy bets, the other calls..I don't see any draws that worry me, so I call. Turn is a J. Still good. I bet, the person behind me goes all in, and the other guy goes all in too (!!!). I might have called one all in, but I'm not calling two, cause I'm guessing someone has hit trips (though AJ is obviously a possibility).

I fold. They turn over 28o and 58o respectively. WTF? They both called a big raise from a super tight UTG with 28o and 58o.....


The variance is crazy but if your bankroll is big enough to handle the variance (say enough to enroll in 50 tournaments), you can make a decent return. You just can't get pissed.

This kind of **** happens to me all the time, extremely annoying.

[99*]

Ok, have a senario for you guys to go over. Cash game with 10c/20c blinds.

UTG - Folds
#2 - Folds
#3 - Raises to 80c (has been very aggressive)
#4 - Folds
#5 - Folds
#6 - Calls
Me (with Kd-10d) - Call
Blinds - Fold.

Flop comes Qh-Ks-Qc

#3 - Checks
#6 - Bet another 80c
Me - Call
#3 - Call

Turn Kc.

#3 - Bets $2.
#6 - Folds
Me - Call

River Qs.

#3 - Bets $8

What would you do in this case? Could/should I have raised the turn bet?

[Athlai]

I would've raised the turn, the quads would be a supremely unlucky to come up against with a player like that. They probably would've called the turn either way.

[bryce]

Possibly a min-raise on the turn I reckon purely for value as you would think you've got it as good as sewn up, and would probably get called by a wide variety. Man I hope he didn't have the q lol talk about a cold deck ha

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by 99*

Ok, have a senario for you guys to go over. Cash game with 10c/20c blinds.

UTG - Folds
#2 - Folds
#3 - Raises to 80c (has been very aggressive)
#4 - Folds
#5 - Folds
#6 - Calls
Me (with Kd-10d) - Call
Blinds - Fold.

You have position, and have a decent hand. Good so far.

Originally Posted by 99*

Flop comes Qh-Ks-Qc

#3 - Checks
#6 - Bet another 80c
Me - Call
#3 - Call

I might raise here actually. You can find out if someone has hit a queen, or at least a good king. Your kicker is not that strong, and I'd probably try to win it right here.

An important thing to note is that if someone hits trips on the flop, and there are no obvious flush/straight draws, most people will not bet. They will check that flop, even weak players will realize they need to keep others in the pot and try to build it, and generally they will follow this advice 8/10 times I've noticed. So his bet actually makes me think he doesn't have that queen and I'd put that lower down on the possible hands he could have.

Originally Posted by 99*

Turn Kc.

#3 - Bets $2.
#6 - Folds
Me - Call

He keeps betting, he has something. Raise him. If he had a queen, you have him beat. If he has that last king, you are going to pay him off anyway. So get your money in, and likely he will call you if he has a queen (but I don't think he has a queen, that bet on the flop leads me to believe that pretty strongly).

River Qs.

Originally Posted by 99*

#3 - Bets $8

What would you do in this case? Could/should I have raised the turn bet?

Go all in. No doubt. I highly doubt he has a queen, and if he has a king with a better kicker you'll split the pot since the kicker is now irrelevant. If he does have a queen, well he hid it well and you can't really do much about quads.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

You have position, and have a decent hand. Good so far.



I might raise here actually. You can find out if someone has hit a queen, or at least a good king. Your kicker is not that strong, and I'd probably try to win it right here.

Agreed, a call is a little passive. Folding pre-flop wouldn't have been a particularly bad play either. It depends how well you back yourself to play fairly marginal hands like K10. Personally I'd probably lay it down, I don't like the hand. Would much rather play a J10 in position.

An important thing to note is that if someone hits trips on the flop, and there are no obvious flush/straight draws, most people will not bet. They will check that flop, even weak players will realize they need to keep others in the pot and try to build it, and generally they will follow this advice 8/10 times I've noticed. So his bet actually makes me think he doesn't have that queen and I'd put that lower down on the possible hands he could have.

I'd make a continuation bet on the flop with a queen. It's not a sign of strength, because I always make the continuation bet, and I make sure they know. Trips aren't strong enough to slow-play against two opponents unless the board is incredibly dry, as the turn card rather demonstrates. But everyone does it anyway, so your point definitely still stands. It's when ultra-aggressive opponents slow down that you have to be careful.

He keeps betting, he has something. Raise him. If he had a queen, you have him beat. If he has that last king, you are going to pay him off anyway. So get your money in, and likely he will call you if he has a queen (but I don't think he has a queen, that bet on the flop leads me to believe that pretty strongly).

Disagree here. Second nuts (the only hand that has you beat now is QQ, and if that's what he has, he's cleaning you out regardless) is strong enough to slow-play in position. Out of position it doesn't make much sense, but in position you're giving the maniac another chance to hang himself come the river.

River Qs.


Go all in. No doubt. I highly doubt he has a queen, and if he has a king with a better kicker you'll split the pot since the kicker is now irrelevant. If he does have a queen, well he hid it well and you can't really do much about quads.

The one card you didn't want to see. But it's still an easy all-in. If he has the Queen then fine, but you're soooo far ahead of his range, and there's already a lot of money in the pot. You don't really have a choice at this stage.

From the fact that you posted this particular hand I'm guessing he turned over a Queen. If that's the case, it's nothing to worry about. Full-house against Quads from a particularly aggressive player is just one of those things you can't do anything about. You're getting cleaned out regardless of how you play that ****.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Example:

I am UTG, about half an hour into a tournament. I haven't played a single hand. I have KK, and a bunch of crazy donks at the table, so I make a big raise (4x BB). I get two callers and the blinds fold.

Flop comes 5 2 8, rainbow. OK, no one has hit that unless they have trips (or A8 or something). I check, one guy bets, the other calls..I don't see any draws that worry me, so I call. Turn is a J. Still good. I bet, the person behind me goes all in, and the other guy goes all in too (!!!). I might have called one all in, but I'm not calling two, cause I'm guessing someone has hit trips (though AJ is obviously a possibility).

I fold. They turn over 28o and 58o respectively. WTF? They both called a big raise from a super tight UTG with 28o and 58o.....


The variance is crazy but if your bankroll is big enough to handle the variance (say enough to enroll in 50 tournaments), you can make a decent return. You just can't get pissed.

Haha indeed.

It's not even badly played opponent's hands. Sometimes **** just happens that you can't do anything about. I once sat for three hours in a MTT Qualifier, then bubbled after pushing from the button with AK and being called by the big stack with KK. It's a lot of effort when any cursed combination of hands can end your tournament at any stage.

HU SnGs are the way to go. Much less likely to get beaten by someone useless due to bad luck, and much less invested time that can be washed away. But if I played purely to make money as quickly as possible, I'd multi-table cash games big-stacked.

I'm thinking of getting into Pot Limit Omaha, anyone on here played much of that?

[99*]

Guess I should say I was actually player 3 in that hand. And that I did have the Q.

Am just trying to understand my friends methodology in the hand.

Oh and SS, I play trips the opposite way. I never ever give a free card to someone if I have a made hand (trips or higher). I often put in a big overbet to give a show of weakness with the hope of one caller with either a big pair or such and on the turn push (regardless of what it is).

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by 99*

Guess I should say I was actually player 3 in that hand. And that I did have the Q.

Am just trying to understand my friends methodology in the hand.

Oh and SS, I play trips the opposite way. I never ever give a free card to someone if I have a made hand (trips or higher). I often put in a big overbet to give a show of weakness with the hope of one caller with either a big pair or such and on the turn push (regardless of what it is).

Never? What about quads?

I'd flat-call with quads, a nut flush and sometimes with a full house too. Min-raise is a good option but then you're not giving a pure bluff the chance to second-barrel on the turn. A lot of the time with the exponentially-increasing pot they'll even go all the way and push all-in on the river. Even if they don't, with position you can make a nice value bet or ridiculous overbet. It's all good.

Depends how many good draws there are though.

[99*]

Well, not never, but it would be amost a 9:1 ratio or bet to check/call.

Of course if I have quads, a full boat or the nut flush that becomes much lower, but I'm still more likely to bet.

It's just my mentality I guess.