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Thread: The Battle of the Philosophers - Plato vs Socrates vs Aristotle

  1. #46
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cover drive man View Post
    Yeah, plus Descartes' ontological argument is mostly plagiarism from theologians of the middle ages.
    you mean from Al-Ghazzali???
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  2. #47
    International Captain cover drive man's Avatar
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    Was thinking more Thomas Aquinas, can't say I've read much about Al Ghazali, but I'll have a look, thanks.
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  3. #48
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cover drive man View Post
    Was thinking more Thomas Aquinas, can't say I've read much about Al Ghazali, but I'll have a look, thanks.
    I had thought of Thomas Aquinas but I thought that Al Ghazali had preceded him. Not sure though

  4. #49
    vcs
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    Is anyone familiar with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? Never truly grasped its significance...


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    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Of all the self-aggrandising threads in all the fora in all the world, this one wins.
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  6. #51
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Of all the self-aggrandising threads in all the fora in all the world, this one wins.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Of all the self-aggrandising threads in all the fora in all the world, this one wins.
    haha, AWTA. Going to start a thread on Bayes rule and it's application to maths/statistics and see how many join me.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 12-04-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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    International 12th Man Quaggas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Is anyone familiar with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? Never truly grasped its significance...
    What, like a system of axioms is either incomplete or inconsistent? So, like, Bertrand Russel spent a lifetime chasing a castle in the sky? Goedel, Escher, Bach (Hofstadter?) is a good read on this.

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    International 12th Man Quaggas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    haha, AWTA. Going to start a thread on Bayes rule and it's application to maths/statistics and see how many join me.
    Gonna be kicked out of the Association of Classical Statisticians, that's for sure.

  10. #55
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    haha, AWTA. Going to start a thread on Bayes rule and it's application to maths/statistics and see how many join me.
    TBF the CW maths and science threads make up the trifecta

  11. #56
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaggas View Post
    Gonna be kicked out of the Association of Classical Statisticians, that's for sure.
    It's funny to see the Bayesian zealots in action, though. Only in the Bayesian world is the insult "Frequentist!", well, an insult. I'm a convert but geez, it's a hard enough barrow to push without the person you're trying to explain it to saying "Yeah I knew someone who tried explaining this me before. They were a knob about it."

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  12. #57
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Is anyone familiar with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? Never truly grasped its significance...
    About a month ago I had a look at ZFC set theory and its underpinnings.

    Holy **** that **** is abstract. Mind-bending.
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  13. #58
    International Vice-Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Is anyone familiar with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? Never truly grasped its significance...
    In my opinion: the theorem brings about the rationale for post-modernist thought. A potential defining moment where Western academia give up on the theory that basic logic could be used to describe the world, based on the fact that we now had mathematical logic showing itself to be inconsistent. From base assumptions you cannot build a system which is consistent. It stemmed on Russel’s Paradox which he laboured over for many years:

    ‘The Set of all sets which is not a member of itself’

    a) If this set is in the Set, then contradicts its own rule.
    b) If the set is not in its own set then it passes its rule, but then because of this it does belong in the ‘set of all sets not a member of themselves’ and fails, making it a paradox.

    Gödel determined this was a sentence that could be constructed from any logical system.

    Hence, any logical theory which aims to describe consistently the ‘ultimate truth’ of a human set for morality/ethics can go no further than this, you cant logically use certain axioms to provide a basis for human action. What develops from Gödel’s theorem is the fact that closed logical systems could be developed. i.e. religions, philosophies, idiosyncratic rules of a profession etc. that can remain consistent from their own view, but ultimately this proves they are inconsistent also, hence empiricism is maybe the best thing we’ve got and rationalism needs to be put to one side.

    Now you start to interpret a history of ‘progress’ that had been in the minds of enlightenment thinkers, and had justified: Colonisation via improving the lot of poorer nations and helping ‘primitive cultures’ to progress to more enlightened ways. Suddenly there is a final realisation that ‘there is no such thing as progress’ each culture/tribe is no further advanced or closer to any inherent innate truth than that of another, we can no longer hide behind a rebadged idealism of progress (i.e. rationalism) to justify imperialist conduct.

    Take for example ‘third wave feminism’ and its more recent interpretations of the head scarf. It moved from “Our reference frame” which said you must wear it to achieve the standard of female liberation we have achieved in the west’ to ‘you should have the choice as to whether you where it or not’ and ultimately aims to show more respect to the ‘cultural reference frame’ from which each person conducts their decisions and is based more towards results rather that ‘absolute authority’ over a moral high ground. Certain non-negotiables exist like human rights etc. but require discourse to resolve, not cultural hegemony. This at least is the similar path by which Australia is looking towards reconciliation.

  14. #59
    International Captain cover drive man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Of all the self-aggrandising threads in all the fora in all the world, this one wins.

  15. #60
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbacks View Post
    In my opinion: the theorem brings about the rationale for post-modernist thought. A potential defining moment where Western academia give up on the theory that basic logic could be used to describe the world, based on the fact that we now had mathematical logic showing itself to be inconsistent. From base assumptions you cannot build a system which is consistent. It stemmed on Russel’s Paradox which he laboured over for many years:

    ‘The Set of all sets which is not a member of itself’

    a) If this set is in the Set, then contradicts its own rule.
    b) If the set is not in its own set then it passes its rule, but then because of this it does belong in the ‘set of all sets not a member of themselves’ and fails, making it a paradox.

    Gödel determined this was a sentence that could be constructed from any logical system.

    Hence, any logical theory which aims to describe consistently the ‘ultimate truth’ of a human set for morality/ethics can go no further than this, you cant logically use certain axioms to provide a basis for human action. What develops from Gödel’s theorem is the fact that closed logical systems could be developed. i.e. religions, philosophies, idiosyncratic rules of a profession etc. that can remain consistent from their own view, but ultimately this proves they are inconsistent also, hence empiricism is maybe the best thing we’ve got and rationalism needs to be put to one side.

    Now you start to interpret a history of ‘progress’ that had been in the minds of enlightenment thinkers, and had justified: Colonisation via improving the lot of poorer nations and helping ‘primitive cultures’ to progress to more enlightened ways. Suddenly there is a final realisation that ‘there is no such thing as progress’ each culture/tribe is no further advanced or closer to any inherent innate truth than that of another, we can no longer hide behind a rebadged idealism of progress (i.e. rationalism) to justify imperialist conduct.

    Take for example ‘third wave feminism’ and its more recent interpretations of the head scarf. It moved from “Our reference frame” which said you must wear it to achieve the standard of female liberation we have achieved in the west’ to ‘you should have the choice as to whether you where it or not’ and ultimately aims to show more respect to the ‘cultural reference frame’ from which each person conducts their decisions and is based more towards results rather that ‘absolute authority’ over a moral high ground. Certain non-negotiables exist like human rights etc. but require discourse to resolve, not cultural hegemony. This at least is the similar path by which Australia is looking towards reconciliation.
    WTF...........even with such simplified presentation this sounds like abstract ****

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