Should the west support Israel ?

[C_C]

What are your opinions on this ?
Frankly, i think the western support of Israel reeks of hypocrasy. We have the good ol yanks and pom officials wax eloquoent about freedom of speech, freedom of civil liberties, zero-tolerance for racism, etc etc. Yet, Israel is a nation founded on racism and bigotry- you have to either have the Jewish bloodlines( ie, be of the jewish 'race'), married to a Jew or accept their doctrine to be a citizen of Israel.
If in the west, where it is bloody outrageous to say 'you can only become a british citizen if you are a whiteboy by birth, married to a british or accept christianity', why is there support for such a nation ?

Recently, we hear how the west shouldnt deal with HAMAS, even though it is democratically elected, simply because it is a terrorist organisation.
Now, i for one, completely agree with this perspective. Terrorism is unacceptable and terrorists should never be negotiated with.
But hang on a moment - why did the west not only accept terrorists like Ben Gurion and Menachim Begin, but actively support them ? Both Begin and Gurion fit the definition of terrorists as accurately as the leader(s) of HAMAS or Hezbollah do.
Al Qaeda bombed that Jordanian hotel and it created a huge furore and i dont think the guy who did it, if caught, would ever see the other side of a prison wall. But hang on - when Ben Gurion and Begin bombed Hotel King David - a civillian target, incurring civillian casualties, the west promptly looked the other way.
We rail against Saddam as a psycho lunatic for genociding the Kurds - and rightly so. Such people should not be released into the common public unless rehab is possible.
But why did the west not try Ben Gurion and Begin for the Dier Yassin masscre, especially since Ben Gurion is on record stating that Dier Yassin was the perfect terror campaign ever conducted by Igrun and Hagannah ? ( two terrorist organisations who merged to form the Israeli Defence Forces)

Why is it that the west has a 'whats good for the goose isnt good for the gander' perspective on this Israel-Palestine situation ?
Because honestly, from where i stand, i cannot differentiate between Israel and Palestine.
Both act in utterly psychotic ways - blowing up/killing civillians, perpetrating violence, electing terrorists to run their country etc etc.
It utterly baffles me that there are two idjits who are duking it out in the middle of the school yard and instead of disciplining them both, we are cheering one tosser along and vilifying the other....what gives, really ?

[Craig]

For one of the few times I am in agreeance with you CC.

Although what now for Israel-Palistine since Sharon is on last legs now?

[luckyeddie]

Before the state of Israel came into being (when it was the British Mandate of Palestine), my father served in the military there.

The first-hand experiences he was able to recount were enough to make your hair curl - talk about being in no-mans-land. He said that his perpetual fear was being shot in the back - the only problem being that he didn't know which way to face in order to ensure that wouldn't happen.

[luckyeddie]

Originally Posted by Craig

For one of the few times I am in agreeance with you CC.

Although what now for Israel-Palistine since Sharon is on last legs now?

Sharon has quite a bit of 'previous'...

[Langeveldt]

Everyone's as bad as each other, its like a never spree of eye for eye tooth for tooth that will never stop because everybody wants a resolution on their terms only.. And having a buffoon like George W at the helm certainly doesnt help matters..

[Armadillo]

The west should not support wholly support Israel, what of poor, unsupported palestine?

[Dasa]

To put it simply, the West shouldn't be supporting Israel...however the issue is quite complex...

[Top_Cat]

The west shouldn't support Israel ideologically but if they stop now, you'll have a region cave in on itself. I'm sure the resultant war would be a genocide making Rwanda look like a picnic lunch. Israel with current reseverves would put up a fight for a while but eventually........

Why is it that the west has a 'whats good for the goose isnt good for the gander' perspective on this Israel-Palestine situation ?
Because honestly, from where i stand, i cannot differentiate between Israel and Palestine.
Both act in utterly psychotic ways - blowing up/killing civillians, perpetrating violence, electing terrorists to run their country etc etc.
It utterly baffles me that there are two idjits who are duking it out in the middle of the school yard and instead of disciplining them both, we are cheering one tosser along and vilifying the other....what gives, really ?

They've made an investment and now have to see it through I guess. That would be their attitude. Plus, having a foothold in the region with the only power anywhere near the west in ideological terms is important to them. Without Israel, you'd have a huge region where the US has no say. This is anethema to them.

[luckyeddie]

It has been suggested that Israel has as many as 400 deliverable nuclear and thermonuclear warheads. That's a lot of 'glass parking lots', to coin an overworked phrase.

If the west suddenly said that Israel were on their own and that their neighbours took it upon themselves to 'liberate' Palestine, does anyone think that much restraint would be shown?

The first one might well be detonated in the middle of the desert - purely as a warning. I leave you to guess the priorities as far as cities were concerned.

[Langeveldt]

Originally Posted by luckyeddie

The first one might well be detonated in the middle of the desert - purely as a warning. I leave you to guess the priorities as far as cities were concerned.

With 400, take your pick!

[superkingdave]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

The west should not support wholly support Israel, what of poor, unsupported palestine?

IIRC the Palestinian Authority is pretty majorly funded by the EU and the US (c$1bn per year - not as much as the US gives to Israel but not inconsequential)

[steds]

To be honest, I don't give a crap about Israel.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by C_C

Yet, Israel is a nation founded on racism and bigotry- you have to either have the Jewish bloodlines( ie, be of the jewish 'race'), married to a Jew or accept their doctrine to be a citizen of Israel.
If in the west, where it is bloody outrageous to say 'you can only become a british citizen if you are a whiteboy by birth, married to a british or accept christianity', why is there support for such a nation ?

I feel I should point out that what you say here isn't actually true. There are nearly 1.5 million Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship. A pretty significant minority in a country of about 7 million people. They're the descendants of the Palestinians who elected to say within Israel's pre-1968 borders.

They have voting rights in Isreali elections &, I believe some Israeli-Arabs actually sit in the Knesset. They are not, however, required to serve in the Israeli military as all Jewish (with the exception of the ultra-orthodox) citizens are. presumably becuase the Israeli authority are loathe to arm & martially train what they might consider a potential "5th column" within their own citizenry.

Originally Posted by C_C

But hang on - when Ben Gurion and Begin bombed Hotel King David - a civillian target, incurring civillian casualties, the west promptly looked the other way.

I also think you're wrong to say the west "looked the other way" after the bombing. As the British military were the main targets of the blast I think our government was far from indifferent. IIRC Begin (the man behind the bombing, Ben Gurion wasn't involved after the scale of intent became apparent) had a price on his head. Had he have been captured he would probably have been executed.

[C_C]

I feel I should point out that what you say here isn't actually true. There are nearly 1.5 million Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship. A pretty significant minority in a country of about 7 million people. They're the descendants of the Palestinians who elected to say within Israel's pre-1968 borders.

They have voting rights in Isreali elections &, I believe some Israeli-Arabs actually sit in the Knesset. They are not, however, required to serve in the Israeli military as all Jewish (with the exception of the ultra-orthodox) citizens are. presumably becuase the Israeli authority are loathe to arm & martially train what they might consider a potential "5th column" within their own citizenry.

Their Arab minority citizenry is the only exception to this - i think this was the 'agreement' they settled after the 1948 war where the UN censured Israel.
But if anyone else today was to seek Israeli citizenship, they would either have to be of 'jewish heritage', married to a jew or willing to completely adopt Judaism.
That is a bit like saying 'you gotta be a whiteboy or you gotta be married to a white girl or you gotta completely embrace christianity if you wanna be a citizen of Britain'...which is outrageous by western standards.

I also think you're wrong to say the west "looked the other way" after the bombing. As the British military were the main targets of the blast I think our government was far from indifferent. IIRC Begin (the man behind the bombing, Ben Gurion wasn't involved after the scale of intent became apparent) had a price on his head. Had he have been captured he would probably have been executed.

From what i've read, Menachim Begin was the 'executive officer' for Hotel King David bombing and Ben Gurion authorised the bombing, thus making him culpable. My memory is a bit fuzzy on this ( i read it a while ago) but i think Begin was a big cheese in Igrun and Ben Gurion in Hagannah and they cooperated a lot.

[chris.hinton]

I think that the wests support of Israel is correct.. Israel deserves the right to exist and must do all it can and get help from America and Britian to prevent the Arab World from destorying Israel..

Israel has the correct land IMO, and has had talks about having a Palastian state but that has been knocked into a cocked hat by PLO and Arafat and the Evil "Goverment" that is Hamas, oh course Israel has it faults every country does but it takes a lot of unfair stick

and before we talk about in the past (before 1948) remeber that Egypty and Syria is owned by Christain but hey no one beings that up