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Thread: Interesting info about the origin of Europeans ( ATTN Top_Cat: you may be interested)

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    Interesting info about the origin of Europeans ( ATTN Top_Cat: you may be interested)

    Was browsing along in wikipedia ( yes, i am a geek) looking for information about genetic mutations and developments.
    I found some interesting points that indicate that the m-17 haplotype mutation ( the defining marker for 'caucasians') occured in India and in short, europeans probably originate from India ( thus throwing a big spanner into the whole 'aryan invasion theory' in essence- mind you, this doesnt make every claims by fundamentalist hinduvtas right, just puts serious doubts about the fundamentals about the Aryan invasion theory).

    Read on :

    Two articles that discuss this in great detail ( highly techical) :



    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild2003b.pdf
    http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/C...et_al_2003.pdf

    Exerpt from Wikipedia :

    The recent advances in Archaeogenetics have some interesting results for the Aryan invasion theory but are still in the early stages. Genetic study shows that Indian population as a whole has little similarity to other areas of supposed Indo-European settlement, indicating there was no mass settlement. Indian maternal DNA is generally similar right across the country indicating that the mass of population has been in place there for a long period.

    More recent results (Kivisild et al. 2003b; Cordeaux et al. 2003) show that the combined results from mtDNA, Y-chromosome and autosomal genes indicate that "Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene" (Cordeaux et al. 2003).

    The haplogroup R1a has been previously linked with the ancient Kurgans and/or Indo-Europeans of Southern Russia/Ukraine, who supposedly migrated to Europe, Central Asia and India between 3000 and 1000 BC (Passarino et al. 2001; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001; Wells et al. 2001). However, the high frequency of R1a found in Punjab and in the South Indian Chenchu tribe, together with a highter R1a-associated STR diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and Central Asia, indicates that R1 and R1a differentiation may have originated in Southern or Western Asia (Kivisild 2003b). The defining M17 mutation has also been found in several South Indian tribes (Kivisild 2003b; Ramana et al. 2001; Wells et al. 2001). Stephen Oppenheimer, who reports upon the results of the Human Genome Diversity Project in his book "The Real Eve: Modern Man's Journey out of Africa", comments that, "For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors ... thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan Invasion of India'" (p. 152). Oppenheimer further believes that it is highly suggestive that India is the birthplace of the Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups which he calls the Eurasian Eves. He believes that it is highly probable that nearly all human maternal lineages in Europe (and similarly in East Asia) descended from only four mtDNA lines that originated in South Asia 50,000-10,000 years ago.

    The neolithic spread of farmers to Europe from Levant/Middle East has also been linked to 12f2 (haplogroup 9) and the markers M35 (haplogroup 21) and M201. But while M35 is present in Europe, Anatolia, South Caucasus and Iran, Indians generally do not have the Alu insertion in their Y chromosomes. The lack of YAP+ chromosomes in India suggests that M35 appeared in the Middle East only after a migration from Iran to India had taken place, but earlier than the later migration of Near and Middle Eastern farmers to Europe (Kivisild 2003a).

    Virtually all Central Asian haplogroups of M seem to belong to the Mongolian rather than the Indian type of haplogroup M, which indicates that no large-scale migration from the present Turkish-speaking populations of Central Asia to India could have occurred (Kivisild 2000).

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Oh dear God, you're right! You ARE a geek!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Oh dear God, you're right! You ARE a geek!


    Bah.
    Thats all you can say, you former slut of the biochem industry ?

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Bah.
    Thats all you can say, you former slut of the biochem industry ?
    You got nothin' on me. That could have been anyone's butt in those photos.

    Interesting theory. It's one of those things; it was only matter of time before a lot of acheology was laid waste by acheological genetics. I hadn't really been keeping tabs on the discoveries but I'd definitely be interested in seeing where from and how the extracted genetic material was analysed.

    Creationist 'scientists' to attempt to discredit in 5.....4...........3.................


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    lol

    Well, from my understanding ( you obviously are a greater authority in this field than i am), the mtDNA study and analysis ( along with y-chromosomal study) was done within current population groups to show prevalence/precedence and thus deduce data on it.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Creationist 'scientists' to attempt to discredit in 5.....4...........3.................
    this is all bull ****, the intelligent designer created it all....
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    International Regular King_Ponting's Avatar
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    wouldnt really trust wikipedia as an average joe could come in and write half of the crap on that site....

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    Hall of Fame Member steds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King_Ponting
    wouldnt really trust wikipedia as an average joe could come in and write half of the crap on that site....
    Yes. Infact, me and Supafreak wrote that very article between us

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    Quote Originally Posted by King_Ponting
    wouldnt really trust wikipedia as an average joe could come in and write half of the crap on that site....
    And I do!
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    Quote Originally Posted by steds
    Yes. Infact, me and Supafreak wrote that very article between us
    There you go.
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    wouldnt really trust wikipedia as an average joe could come in and write half of the crap on that site....
    An example;

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Anchorman

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    International Debutant shankar's Avatar
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    The Aryan invasion theory has been discredited for quite some time now. It had very little basis in terms of actual evidence.

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    Could someone please explain this a little more understandably?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Good work.
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    Could someone please explain this a little more understandably?
    Neil of all people :O... i would have expected pip's to say that .......
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