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Thread: Abortion?

  1. #46
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    Anti.

    For my reasons, check the last thread we had on it.
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  2. #47
    International Vice-Captain Linda's Avatar
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    Yep, Im completely against abortion. Mostly because I dont think it that a life should just be thrown away like that. I understand that its not an easy decision, but there are excellent alternatives.

    Adoption is the best way, in my opinion, because it not only solves the problem of having to look after a child, but it delivers a special gift to someone else.

    Rape is another issue, but again, its an innocent child, and they should not be punished for their fathers behaviour. It would be tough on the mother to have the baby, obviously, but the potential in that life could be enormous.

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  3. #48
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes
    Interesting. So a person could rape someone else, and then the victim couldn't get an abortion without the permission of the rapist?
    i thought i wouldnt have to clarify that. i mean if the sex was consensual (sp?), then both parties deserve a say in it. if it was rape or the woman doesnt know who it was, then it should be the girls choice

  4. #49
    International Captain Slow Love™'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a massive zebra
    I think future children should have a right to life and if you are stupid enough to accidenally get pregnant you should bear the consequences.
    The problem with this is that many of these definitions of "future children" are fairly arbitrary. If I use a condom, and throw it in the rubbish, have I committed murder? What about the "morning after" pill?

    IMO, if the definitions are going to be so shifting, ununified and arbitrary, the most practical time to call something a genuine, independent life (with the associated rights) is after birth.

    Having said this, advances in science have enabled foetuses to be viable outside the womb (with artificial assistance) at earlier and earlier states, which asks significant questions, both pro and against. I disagree with Anil that this is a religious issue rather than a moral one - it does raise moral concerns, and some don't seem to understand that there are plenty of secularists that also have dilemmas concerning abortion. Outside of biology, there's also a sentimental aspect to the idea of "future children" that sometimes gets overlooked. Which is why it is generally a difficult decision to make, even by some of the strongest proponents of choice.

    Fundamentally though, in a legal sense, it seems unavoidable to me that in defining an abortion as criminal behaviour (and enforcing accordingly), the logical outcome will be a depreciation of basic rights for women - the control over her own body. If the State can force women to carry to term, that's just far too close to treating the gender as chattel for my liking. Such a basic human right has to trump the "rights" of an foetus yet to be born.

    There are difficult issues of consistency to be dealt with (on both sides of the debate). I respect somebody that morally disproves on their own basis, but I feel forcing that view on the rest of society has far more to offer in terms of negatives than positives (the same applies to my thoughts on euthanasia).

    I see nothing wrong with raising the profile of adoption as an additional option, so long as it's not pursued coercively.
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    I am very much pro-choice!!!!

    To those who say it should only be allowed in the case of rape pregnancies....what would happen if a woman was raped,and the cops couldnt find the rapist until 6 months down the line (ie too late to abort the pregnancy)..would the woman have to wait until the rapist has been found, arrested, charged,and found guilty before the abortion takes place???

    Or would be find the number of false rape accusations increase,coz some girl just wants to get rid of the unborn 'child' and cant do it !!!???etc etc

    The choice has to be with the woman 100%...she carries for 9 months,and is expected to raise the child for 18 years..it can only be her choice in my eyes
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  6. #51
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    yes it totally agree when you give a child birth you have to think can i give this child a good live ? without a father its harder as he is 70% of the time the money gainer.oke money is not everything but it does makes things easier. also in this world you have to think twice before you give a child birth, the world and how its developing in the world doesnt give me a good feeling and i would consider twice before giving it life with all the nuclear, global warming etc etc. problems. a child is a life but its also your child and your life. as said before the option should be there but rather not!
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    Pro choice, If something has never been conscious, I don't really consider it as a human life, or murder for that matter.. Afraid I've seen it first hand where the potential for mistreatment is absolutely vast, and adoption isn't the easiest thing to do either..
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  8. #53
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    I guess i didnt explain whether im for or against it! I think it all depends on the situation, if u were raped and didnt want to keep the baby then, thats a good enough reason to get rid of it. But i dont agree with getting rid of it if it's not a "perfect" baby. I know people who would give anything just to have a baby, and it really upsets them when they hear of someone having an abortion because it wasnt "perfect".
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Yep, Im completely against abortion. Mostly because I dont think it that a life should just be thrown away like that. I understand that its not an easy decision, but there are excellent alternatives.
    Playing Devil's Avocate here; how would you feel, as a women, if your reproductive rights were curtailed to the point where the law said that if you had been raped, you HAD to abort even if you decided to keep the child?

    My point is, you're against having an abortion so you'll never have one. That's your choice. But why should your choice curtail the choices of others? Bearing in mind that the freedom of choice is only a recent phenomena, you're effectively in opposition to the reproductive rights that women fought so hard for only a few decades ago.

    And I would say it's highly suspect that adoption is an 'excellent' alternative.

    And surely you wouldn't advocate that a rape victim would be FORCED to keep the child borne of a rape? That's freakin' nuts. If you honestly believe that, well I think I've met the first female misogynist.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Playing Devil's Avocate here; how would you feel, as a women, if your reproductive rights were curtailed to the point where the law said that if you had been raped, you HAD to abort even if you decided to keep the child?

    My point is, you're against having an abortion so you'll never have one. That's your choice. But why should your choice curtail the choices of others? Bearing in mind that the freedom of choice is only a recent phenomena, you're effectively in opposition to the reproductive rights that women fought so hard for only a few decades ago.

    And I would say it's highly suspect that adoption is an 'excellent' alternative.

    And surely you wouldn't advocate that a rape victim would be FORCED to keep the child borne of a rape? That's freakin' nuts. If you honestly believe that, well I think I've met the first female misogynist.
    whats a misogynist pray tell?

  11. #56
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    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misogynist

    The dictionary definition, however, is far stronger than it's colloquial usage.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langeveldt
    whats a misogynist pray tell?
    One who irrationally hates females.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Love™
    I disagree with Anil that this is a religious issue rather than a moral one - it does raise moral concerns, and some don't seem to understand that there are plenty of secularists that also have dilemmas concerning abortion.
    ok i didn't know that non-religious folks also considered this a big moral dilemma....i would still say that the majority of pro-birth people are basing their choice on religious grounds than anything else...the most crappy thing about it is that the pro-choice people are actually fighting for these other peoples' choices as well...while they try to stifle them...
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    Topic: Do you agree that abortion should be legalized?

    The word ‘abort’ in relation to childbearing means ‘to lose a baby because it is born before it has developed enough to survive outside the womb’, according the Chambers Dictionary. There are two types of abortion – via some form of operation or due to a legal miscarriage. The former is consented abortion and is illegal in all instances with the exception of a situation whereby the mother may be seriously harmed or killed due to the pregnancy. Even in the afore mentioned situation it is not technically legal, but rather ‘allowed’ depending on the circumstance.
    The Law of T&T states in Chapter 11:08 of Offences against the person:
    “Any pregnant person who intends to produce her own miscarriage by unlawfully administering to herself any poison or noxious thing, or unlawfully uses an instrument or any other means and any other person to do so is liable to imprisonment for four years.”
    For several reasons, including health issues and perception of morality, I believe that abortion should remain against the Law of Trinidad and Tobago.
    Despite issues of legality, there are still qualified doctors who consent to perform abortions. Considering that an abortion is technically the taking of a life and a doctor commits his life to maintaining health and saving people, such a practice is a major contradiction of duty. Alternatively, there are several ‘non-professional’ means of getting an abortion. These are sometimes called ‘back-street abortions’ and are performed by unqualified persons. In Trinidad and Tobago, these are rather common due to the relative secrecy and affordability.
    A very persuasive and factual point against abortion is the reality of serious health issues as a result of the procedure. Whether professional or non-professional, there are common negative repercussions to abortion operations. In fact, abortion has been listed as either the first or second most prolific killer of women in Trinidad and Tobago for each of the last five years, according to the WHO (World Health Organization). With manual mechanisms, of removal and killing of the foetus there is always the chance of transmission of disease (especially when performed by an unqualified surgeon), internal damage and infections. Such infections have been noted to prevent the mother from ever conceiving again.
    With a foreign object entering the body and acting within it, physical damage is a certain possibility. Intestines may be damaged, the cervix may be damaged and the uterus itself injured. Such occurrences are relatively rare with professional procedures, but are still quite viable. After all, doctors are only human and are subject to mistakes. This holds true especially with the use of chemical methods of killing the foetus. In fact, one of the most common complications of abortion is that of severe haemorrhage. There have been a few occasions of death by this means, especially due to the use of un-prescribed pills (legal and illegal) or general medication. In 2000, a 15-year old girl died three months after an abortion procedure involving the injection of a drug into her body and the ingesting of prescription medication. This argument is sound, backed by facts and can be summarized with one question, “Is it really worth risking your life for?”
    Although the life of the mother may or may not be at risk in an abortion, one thing is for sure; the life of a child has been taken. Technically and biologically speaking, once there is a heartbeat, there is a life. As such, the ending this life by another human being may be construed as murder. Furthermore, the fact that the termination was due a conscious decision makes it premeditated murder. There is no basis for any type of murder to be legalized in this country or any country for that matter.
    This brings us to the whole issue of morality – right and wrong. Perception of morality varies from person to person and is very much interconnected with organized religion. The Roman Catholic Church believes that from the time of conception of the uterus, there is a life. As such, they buy into the argument of murder and avidly support and preach it. Secular opposition to this is expectedly present. Indeed, in 1971, the Hippocratic Oath of the Declaration of Geneva was modified with the removal of ‘from the time of conception’ from the clause starting ‘I will maintain the utmost respect for human life’. Going back to ancient times, we see that Christians have considered abortion to be a sin. Roman societies however, practiced abortion and infanticide freely. Different cultures have different beliefs on right and wrong and what is an acceptable way of life; then there are those who disregard the Law, instruction and common opinion. As such, there will never be a unanimous agreement with regards to the morality aspect of abortion or anything else.
    A common pro-abortion argument is as viable in the circumstance of rape or incest. A mother who is pregnant due to rape does not consent to conceive and has the prospect of having a baby forced upon her. There have been cases of such pregnancies concerning those ranging to as young as preteens. Depending on how young the child is, there may be serious complications of her life if she goes through with the giving birth. In this case, legal (or rather acceptable) abortion comes into play and even the staunchest anti-abortionist would be tempted to concede.
    The unfortunate and unfair occurrence of rape and incest produces repercussions, which are no fault of the victim. Yes, it is unfair and it not right that anyone should suffer as such, but the harsh reality is that life isn’t fair. The sooner we realize this, the better we will deal with the situation.
    The argument is strong, but ultimately falls short. Rape for many victims is the robbing of an innocent life and abortion would equate to the same. Indeed, it is a worse injustice and more serious situation that a mother should rob her own unborn child of life, because that child is essentially part of her and there is an intimate connection. Abortion in the case of rape and/or incest will likely be legalized in Trinidad and Tobago in the near future, but I believe that it shouldn’t be. If the un-consenting mother cannot support the child (financially or mentally) or is not willing to raise the child herself, she should place him under the care of someone capable and willing.
    No one wants to have to life in regret and yet so many have upon considering what could have been. By aborting the foetus and so preventing a life from being lived, you may be taking from the world a potentially monumental character. That unborn child may well have gone on to be someone or to do something great and it is a loss to humanity when this potential is not realized. The prospects of a human life are endless and the limits of human achievement are fairly the same.
    A large portion of the pro-abortion argument is rooted with the benefits of its legalization. Some claim, with reasonable support, that if abortion were made legal, the number of ‘back-street abortions’ would lessen and there would be a lower instance of fatal complications as a result of this. Indeed, as previously stated, there is a decreased chance of negative side effects when the procedure is performed by a qualified medical practitioner. In that case, such a suggestion does seem to hold water, but is essentially a last resort. By legalizing abortion for this reason, we concede to a belief that there is no way to prevent it, so instead we should attempt to control the damage. The unfortunate the reality of the situation is that this may be the only way to go, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a negative, if not a counterproductive mentality. That does not change the fact that it is robbing a child of the right to be born.
    In 1996, the South African parliament approved a bill showing a very liberal stance on abortion. The bill allowed state-funded abortion for any in ‘need’ and further demonstrated the movement of the world to legalize the procedure. It is the moral obligation of the government of a country to protect its citizens in any way possible. I do not see how this adheres to that responsibility. Having sighted abortion as murder, it would be hypocrisy to maintain and uphold laws against murder while allowing abortions to take place.
    It is beyond me how anyone can bear to hinder the life of any child, let alone to terminate it. Everything in life happens for a reason and it is not man’s place to ‘play’ God. ‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away’ - one of the most famous quotations of all-time and in abortion discussion it is one of the most appropriate too. No child is a mistake and as such, no child should be treated as one – born or unborn.
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    I cant be bothered reading that, im cactus after uni.... these 90 minute days are killing me

    Care to give me the jist of it?
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