Abortion?

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Here's a fun question for you - who do you think bears the responsibility of handling the emotional fallout from a teenage girl having an abortion?

What about the emotional and physical toll from being bullied into to carrying the baby to term against your will, or the fallout from being bullied/harassed/abused because of your pregnancy and/or abortion? I know that happens a lot, especially in many conservative or religious families. And I also know there could be a lot of emotional fall out if a young girl has to keep the secret of something like an abortion from her parents.

In the end, there's going to be fallout one way or another. It's a serious decision that's going to affect her life in a non-trivial way. If the kid is so afraid to tell her parents, and thinks there is a legitimate reason why she can't, then there should be processes in place to help her get through it and come to a decision that works best for her.

There is no perfect outcome. What we can do is try to do what's best for the girl. I think having her seek out professional help, and then going by the recommendation of that help is the best option out of list of really bad choices.

[G.I.Joe]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Yeah, you can't take away their right to doctor-patient confidentiality, that's just ridiculously intrusive.

Depends on your area. Not affording doctor patient confidentiality in case of minors requesting abortions has little to do with wanting to be intrusive, and everything to do with how your lawmakers view abortions. DPC goes for a toss almost universally if any of the twin criterea of crime or harm are satisfied. And if your lawmakers decide that abortions in minors have he potential for harm to either the minor mother or the baby, they would be justified in wanting the parents to be involved. If they won't let minors drive and they won't let minors vote, they might be justified in deciding that minors aren't to be trusted with making an educated choice in the matter of abortions.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

What about the emotional and physical toll from being bullied into to carrying the baby to term against your will, or the fallout from being bullied/harassed/abused because of your pregnancy and/or abortion? I know that happens a lot, especially in many conservative or religious families. And I also know there could be a lot of emotional fall out if a young girl has to keep the secret of something like an abortion from her parents.

In the end, there's going to be fallout one way or another. It's a serious decision that's going to affect her life in a non-trivial way. If the kid is so afraid to tell her parents, and thinks there is a legitimate reason why she can't, then there should be processes in place to help her get through it and come to a decision that works best for her.

There is no perfect outcome. What we can do is try to do what's best for the girl. I think having her seek out professional help, and then going by the recommendation of that help is the best option out of list of really bad choices.

I'm not advocating the parents being allowed to force their kids into abortions though, just the fact that parents should not be cut out from this by a teacher taking their child.

[silentstriker]

Parents usually don't force abortions, they usually bully the kid into not having one. And parents should be cut out if there is a legitimate threat of abuse from the parents if either the pregnancy and/or the decision to abort the baby were known.

[silentstriker]

As a parent, if your child thinks there may be abuse as recrimination for the preganncy and/or abortion and the psychologist agrees with that assessment, you should be completely cut out.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

Under sixteen, presumably. And yeah, I am sure he doesn't want their parents to be able to force them to have a baby but to suggest a minor just do it without their parents' knowledge is laughable.

Here's a fun question for you - who do you think bears the responsibility of handling the emotional fallout from a teenage girl having an abortion?

Be nice and easy for parents to look after their daughters when they don't know why they are going through such trauma hey, and who suffers the most then?

You're looking at the issue in a bubble. Your views are only reasonable and correct within your own specific set of circumstances. And your experiences meet mine head-on, because my mother was particularly violent and abusive towards my sister, and had she got pregnant, there's a pretty solid chance she'd have been seriously injured had the law forced her to tell my mother. I'm not joking. She attacked her before for much, much less. And you can't have any provisions for such circumstances, because if you did, every teenage girl who got pregnant would exploit them.

[silentstriker]

And statistically speaking, girls from such background are probably at a higher risk for unwanted pregancies anyway. Especially if they are also afraid to tell the parents.

[Uppercut]

Most certainly.

The conclusion I've belatedly come to regarding the dude having no say in what happens to his own kid is that it might be tough for me to swallow given my personal circumstances, but in the wider scheme of things it's the way it has to be. I think the same is true in this case. There's no doubt working everything past the parent is ideal in Corrin and Kev's families. But throughout the entire country, I just don't think you can do it without putting a lot of kids in a lot of danger.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

But throughout the entire country, I just don't think you can do it without putting a lot of kids in a lot of danger.

Not to mention we need less English people being born anyway.

So I'm all for more English abortions

[cover drive man]

Obviously what we are talking about here is the parents rights and responsibilities. SS has given some good arguments whilst (like pf said) Goughy and Corrin actually are parents. I think what I said earlier is relevant. That not all parents are as loving and supportive as they should be.

So let's go with the stereotypical circumstance of a young pregnancy. A girl goes out, gets drunk, has sex and gets pregnant, often this isn't the case but like I said, it's stereotypical. There are a lot of things to consider. Will the father of the unborn take responsibility? How will the parents of the mother react and should they know? Will they be able to provide the unborn a good life (but a good life is very hard to define)? Should she go through with the pregnancy? So who decides the answers to these questions?

Will the father of the unborn take responsibility?

I think the Father should take responsibility but that's not the question. I don't think the dad should be forced into bringing up a child he doesn't want, this could only really be detrimental to the unborn. Another question which derives from this is what if the father wants the child and the mother doesn't? On one hand, pregnancy is often a physically and emotionally difficult time but on the other hand, if a man is willing to commit to bring up his child and to give the child the best upbringing he can who can step in the way? But if we went vice versa, the mother wants the child and the father doesn't often (without stereotyping) the father can just take off and leave the mother with the child. I think if the mother wants the child to love it and bring it up to the best of her ability we must allow this. It is the mother who carries the child and goes through pregnancy. I also think there should be emphasis based on supporting disadvantaged parents (Not just young parents) As for the problem of the Father wanting the child and the mother doesn't I really don't think I can answer this.

How will the parents of the mother react and should they know?

Obviously different parents will react differently. I'm not going to be incredibly ignorant and try and give wisdom on this as I'm not a parent and can't begin to imagine what this ultimate responsibility is like. You could argue hear that the first question answers the second. We tend to have two schools of thought hear, you could even compare it to the Deontology Vs Concequentialism argument. On the one hand should we judge the concequences of parents being informed when we legislate (or just choose personally) or should we go by the idea that every parent has a right to know? I knew a girl who's father said to her "I'm warning you, if you turn grew up to be gay I will completely disregard you. You'll be no daughter of mine." This a disgusting thing to say. But what if a parent said that about sex before marriage? Or even (although I imagine this would be rather extreme) "I'll beat you senseless if you shame the family like that." (BTW I've never come across anyone who's father has said the latter)

This is the core of the argument for discretion from parents, avoiding abuse. Yet the mothers could use this discretion simply to not get in trouble with their parents which is just wrong on everyone, including the mother. But yes, I think the first question may answer the second but it's hard to judge accurately how people will react to things.

Will they be able to provide the unborn a good life (but a good life is very hard to define)?

Here the bracketed point is probably the biggest. Some would call a life of antisocial behaviour (in a serious sense, not just the ASBO sense). There is a massive argument at the moment about people who commit terrible crimes, treat people with aggression and/or bully, lie and manipulate. The argument being, how much does their upbringing contribute to this? Many people come from terribly abusive and neglective homes but never abuse other people or seriously damage anyone. But many cases of abuse and neglect come from people who were abused or neglected (whther this is any sympathy-point to the offender is another argument all together) We also have to make sure we don't get into the fascist idea of "undesirables" Which I mentioned earlier. Also there's is the case of will the parents of the unborn be abusive, but this is a possibility in every pregnancy and it should be considered in every pregnancy.

Should she go through with the pregnancy?

This is an entirely individualistic question which should involve all the points I've mentioned here and more in every case. Having children is the Ultimate personal responsibility.

[sledger]

Should be compulsory in certain countries imo.

[GingerFurball]

Originally Posted by cover drive man

That's were we get into the argument of "When does life start?" But I suppose that's like saying killing a baby isn't killing a human being.

I wouldn't call it "life" when for at least 25 out of the 40 weeks the foetus is utterly incapable of surviving outside it's mother's body.

[GingerFurball]

Originally Posted by cover drive man

As for the problem of the Father wanting the child and the mother doesn't I really don't think I can answer this.

As far as I'm concerned, that's not an issue. If my girlfriend had opted to abort, as gutwrenching as it would have been for me, you cannot have a society where men dictate what women can and cannot do with their bodies. It might take two to create a baby, but once you've shot your load, your job is done. Having seen first hand how pregnancy affects you, allowing men to dictate whether or not women should be made to go through with a pregnancy simply isn't an option.

[FaaipDeOiad]

Originally Posted by GingerFurball

I wouldn't call it "life" when for at least 25 out of the 40 weeks the foetus is utterly incapable of surviving outside it's mother's body.

Yeah. A coma patient on life support is technically "alive" too, but turning off the machine and letting them die isn't considered murder because it's impossible for them to survive without outside assistance. A foetus at 10 weeks is no different, it's not a life in any meaningful sense of the word, it's just something that could potentially be a life if certain actions were taken.

[cover drive man]

With a patient in a coma though. They would pull turn off the life support because there's little or no hope of them recovering, with a foetus there's a massive chance it will develop into a functioning human.