Abortion?

[PhoenixFire]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Gah *spits*

That is a horrible justification and a complete breakdown of the parent/child relationship. Parents are responsible for their children and to have teachers and the State take that away from them is ****ing ****ing sickening.

Parents have the right to know what is happening to their children. They are their children. They are responsible for bringing them up within the law.

I am thankful that I dont live in a country where the rights of a parent are so easily cast aside and the State isnt so overbearing. It is a rights issue.

The fact that it is almost accepted in the UK shows how out of sync the Brits are with most other places in terms of nanny state and interference in peoples life. This is something that people from other places dont believe happens.

Anyway, I dont want to get bogged down by this as it makes me angry. The issue is abortion itself.

So if you were a teacher and a student came up to you and said that they had got pregnant through whatever means and that their parents would be violent/abusive towards them if they found out and that they really needed your help in going to an abortion, then you would say 'No, I am going to let you suffer violence at the hands of your parents'?

The safety and well-being of the child should be absolutely paramount and nothing else should come in the way of it.

[GingerFurball]

Originally Posted by cover drive man

I used to be pro abortion but thinking about it, if you look at the core fundamental act you are killing a baby. Which, if the child were born would be (quite rightly) severely punished. It's denying a life. I understand there are cases (like rape or incestual rape) Where the Mother can be traumatised by the terrible things that have happened to her. But again it's still killing a baby.

It's not killing a baby. If you get a termination before 12 weeks you're destroying something that could develop into a baby.

Personally I'm against abortion (having found that one out the hard way) but I'm unreservedly pro-choice, my ex flatmate had an abortion in January and I fully supported her, it was unquestionably the right thing to do.

You can lecture about being responsible sexually, but absolutely no method of contraception is 100% effective. There's always a remote chance that despite doing everything right, you can still fall pregnant. My old flatmate was on the pill, and had massively infrequent periods, yet she still fell pregnant. Her weird cycle must've meant there was a thousands to one shot that she would fall pregnant, yet it happened. I've got another friend who was on the pill and was prescribed a course of antibiotics which weren't compatible with the pill, something she wasn't warned about, and she's now pregnant.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by Goughy

They are all perfectly legit POVs and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

I really dont like abortion. I dont think I could ever have a child of mine terminated and I find the whole concept and idea rather unseemly, however and this is the big HOWEVER I am pro-choice and I will happily defend peoples right to choose.

Growing up, most of my friends have either had an abortion or their girlfriends had an abortion. It was something I thankfully avoided but I do not judge them or even give it a second thought. Just because I live my life one way doesnt mean I want it applied to the rest of the population. We all live our own life and have to sleep soundly in our own beds at night.

I am deeply offended, for example, by minors taken for abortions by teachers without their parents consent or without them ever being informed in the UK but, again, that is a secondary issue to abortion itself.

I dont like abortion, it is something I have avoided, it is something I doubt I could go through with but that is my choice and others may choose differently. I will defend that right to choose.

I hope people think long and hard about their decisions but of course some will not. That is the currency you have to pay to have that level of freedom.

I agree with every word of this Goughy.

A friend of mine got his then girlfriend pregnant at university...I didn't know this until she had had an abortion. I asked him, when he told me that he'd got her pregnant, what they decided to do, and he just sneered, "get rid of it," I found that a little unsettling, but it is a case of seeing things through my own eyes. I couldn't cope with a child of mine being terminated but obviously not everyone sees it like me.

A horrible situation, of course, would be if the woman really wanted an abortion. I've posted on this before. I wouldn't ever want a child of mine to be terminated, what would I do if a woman I had knocked up did? Ugh. Such a horrible situation, albeit hypothetical, thankfully.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFire

So if you were a teacher and a student came up to you and said that they had got pregnant through whatever means and that their parents would be violent/abusive towards them if they found out and that they really needed your help in going to an abortion, then you would say 'No, I am going to let you suffer violence at the hands of your parents'?

The safety and well-being of the child should be absolutely paramount and nothing else should come in the way of it.

You're missing the point. It is a rare situation, and the main reason a teenager wouldn't tell their parents is not because they'd face abuse but yeah because they'd got a bollocking and all that jazz. And a teacher has no place interfering in that, none whatsoever.

Cases where parents are/would be violent should and are dealt with differently but it is typical of the culture that the previous government set up that people think it's okay and also that they legislate for a rare circumstance and get it to apply across the board.

[silentstriker]

I don't really understand the argument for 'legalize it only if....'. Either you think it's murder or you don't. If you do, the only way it should be legal is if the mother's life is in danger and it's a choice between mother and the child. If you don't think it's murder, than why put any restrictions on it at all? I don't get the 'middle' position.

I'm completely pro-choice by the way.

Originally Posted by Noble One

If rape was the only criteria for having an abortion, wouldn't all females just claim rape to get the abortion?

Just a thought.

No, they wouldn't. You don't quite understand the amount of stigma there is with being a rape victim, even now. Plus, they'd have to prove it in court, name an accuser, etc.

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

A horrible situation, of course, would be if the woman really wanted an abortion. I've posted on this before. I wouldn't ever want a child of mine to be terminated, what would I do if a woman I had knocked up did? Ugh. Such a horrible situation, albeit hypothetical, thankfully.

In the end, nothing and rightfully so. You're not carrying the baby to term, you don't get a vote. Of course, you can try to convince her.

Obviously it's a personal choice, and I have no problem with people being completely pro-life. For me personally though, I think if neither of us are ready to have a child, an abortion would be a very real option.

Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero

You're missing the point. It is a rare situation, and the main reason a teenager wouldn't tell their parents is not because they'd face abuse but yeah because they'd got a bollocking and all that jazz. And a teacher has no place interfering in that, none whatsoever.

Cases where parents are/would be violent should and are dealt with differently but it is typical of the culture that the previous government set up that people think it's okay and also that they legislate for a rare circumstance and get it to apply across the board.

I don't know about applying across the board, but I think in consultation with the teenager, the doctor/teacher should be able to make that decision on whether her fears of not telling her parents are justified.

[GIMH]

Which circumstances would you say it would be justified in?

[silentstriker]

Sorry, are you talking about abortion in general or the not informing the parents part?

The former, pretty much all circumstances. The latter, if the person in question (maybe a trained psychologist has to make that decision) thinks there is a legitimate risk of emotional or physical abuse if the daughter's pregnancy and/or abortion is revealed to the parents.

[cover drive man]

Originally Posted by Goughy

They are all perfectly legit POVs and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

Thanks mate.

Originally Posted by Goughy

Gah *spits*

That is a horrible justification and a complete breakdown of the parent/child relationship. Parents are responsible for their children and to have teachers and the State take that away from them is ****ing ****ing sickening.

Parents have the right to know what is happening to their children. They are their children. They are responsible for bringing them up within the law.

I am thankful that I dont live in a country where the rights of a parent are so easily cast aside and the State isnt so overbearing. It is a rights issue.

The fact that it is almost accepted in the UK shows how out of sync the Brits are with most other places in terms of nanny state and interference in peoples life. This is something that people from other places dont believe happens.

Anyway, I dont want to get bogged down by this as it makes me angry. The issue is abortion itself.

Goughy, you're obviously a loving parent who would want to know about something so big in their child's life to support them. But many parents don't and would just flip potentially really hurting the kid. I know you're not naive but I think you need to bear it in mind that not all parents are willing to give their support.

Originally Posted by GingerFurball

It's not killing a baby. If you get a termination before 12 weeks you're destroying something that could develop into a baby.

That's were we get into the argument of "When does life start?" But I suppose that's like saying killing a baby isn't killing a human being.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Sorry, are you talking about abortion in general or the not informing the parents part?

The former, pretty much all circumstances. The latter, if the person in question (maybe a trained psychologist has to make that decision) thinks there is a legitimate risk of emotional or physical abuse if the daughter's pregnancy and/or abortion is revealed to the parents.

I just mean the parents not being informed...your scenario is fair enough in a sense, have a lot I could say on this but I really should try and finish my work before five

[FaaipDeOiad]

I don't know about teachers necessarily, but I do think a minor should be able to go to a doctor and request an abortion (or birth control etc) without parental consent.

[PhoenixFire]

With Goughy and GIMH both being parents, their POV is entirely reasonable with regards to teachers and abortions, I don't doubt that. I do think that SS's idea of a teacher/doctor/child consultation is probably the best way to go about things.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by Goughy

Gah *spits*

That is a horrible justification and a complete breakdown of the parent/child relationship. Parents are responsible for their children and to have teachers and the State take that away from them is ****ing ****ing sickening.

Parents have the right to know what is happening to their children. They are their children. They are responsible for bringing them up within the law.

I am thankful that I dont live in a country where the rights of a parent are so easily cast aside and the State isnt so overbearing. It is a rights issue.

The fact that it is almost accepted in the UK shows how out of sync the Brits are with most other places in terms of nanny state and interference in peoples life. This is something that people from other places dont believe happens.

Anyway, I dont want to get bogged down by this as it makes me angry. The issue is abortion itself.

What are you proposing exactly? That anyone under the age of 18 should obtain their parents permission to get an abortion? Or that the parents should just be informed?

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad

I don't know about teachers necessarily, but I do think a minor should be able to go to a doctor and request an abortion (or birth control etc) without parental consent.

Yeah, you can't take away their right to doctor-patient confidentiality, that's just ridiculously intrusive.

[Uppercut]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

No, they wouldn't. You don't quite understand the amount of stigma there is with being a rape victim, even now. Plus, they'd have to prove it in court, name an accuser, etc.

I've ranted against this in here earlier. Having thought about it, you're completely right though.

[GIMH]

Originally Posted by Uppercut

What are you proposing exactly? That anyone under the age of 18 should obtain their parents permission to get an abortion? Or that the parents should just be informed?

Originally Posted by Uppercut

Yeah, you can't take away their right to doctor-patient confidentiality, that's just ridiculously intrusive.

Under sixteen, presumably. And yeah, I am sure he doesn't want their parents to be able to force them to have a baby but to suggest a minor just do it without their parents' knowledge is laughable.

Here's a fun question for you - who do you think bears the responsibility of handling the emotional fallout from a teenage girl having an abortion?

Be nice and easy for parents to look after their daughters when they don't know why they are going through such trauma hey, and who suffers the most then?

And under 16s don't have doctor-patient confidentiality...