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  1. #61
    State Vice-Captain
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    So has the US

  2. #62
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Yeah I was about to come in and post this. Kinda had to, really. That said, I doubt it was pressure from the rest of the world dropping this aircraft, probably something new came out Ethiopia today.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 13-03-2019 at 03:35 PM.

  3. #63
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    https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...re-11552413489


    A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected early in January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be.

    U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks.
    Whoa.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 13-03-2019 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #64
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    Why would that be?


  5. #65
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Why would that be?
    If MCAS is responsible for the latest crash, and there was a fix planned but got delayed...
    fade, made to fade
    passion's overrated anyway

    forever 63*

  6. #66
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Ah I see.
    WWCC - Loyaulte Mi Lie

    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
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    You need to clap a cows c**** over your head and get a woolly bull to f**** some sense into you.

    "Do you know why I have credibility? Because I don't exude morality." - Bob Hawke

    #408. Sixty three not out forever.

  7. #67
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    scientificamerican.com_despite-similarities-are-the-2-recent-737-max-8-crashes-a-coincidence/

    Discussion with ex-Boeing engineer. Nicely biased, not necessarily wrong though. The interesting feature I found was I thought the MCAS was part of the autopilot, but it is actually a separate automation that works when the airplane is being flown manually . Which seems to contradict the other pilot stated regards switching the autopilot off, allowing him to retake control? Or else that was a different issue?

    MCAS is a very unusual feature because it’s an augmentation: It’s only active when the airplane is being flown manually. Normally you have automatic flight control [only when] the pilot engages the autopilot. In this case they have a system that’s operating somewhat in parallel to the pilot, providing inputs that are in addition to what the pilots themselves are doing.

    In the case of the 737 [Max 8] the engines are installed below the center of gravity. And so, as the wing loses lift, the engines generate a pitching movement that causes the nose to want to go up. If the nose is starting to rise all by itself and the pilot doesn’t want that to happen, they will have to push the stick to stop it from going up, and that force reversal is a big no-no. Basically you should pull the stick to go up, and you should push the stick to go down—and you should never have to push the stick forward to stop it from going up. MCAS naturally forces the nose to go down, and that means the pilot continues to be able to pull back.
    "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they’ve found it."

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  8. #68
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    https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/20...37-max/584791/
    Interesting article from Atlantic showing some of the ASR reports.(I would like to just say how cool NASA continues to be!)

    And linked inside is a discussion on the importance of pilots.
    https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/...-trust-pilots/

    I have found digging deeper so much of interest in the aviation industry I just did not understand or know.
    Last edited by StephenZA; 14-03-2019 at 01:42 AM.

  9. #69
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    On Ethiopian, the airplane got to 1,000 feet. The airplane at that point lost about 400 feet of altitude, which is extraordinary. The next thing that’s interesting is the airplane flew level for about 30 seconds, about 500 to 600 feet above the ground. This is not what an airplane’s supposed to do—you’re supposed to fly away. And the airspeed continued to increase; they got to over 300 knots at under 1,000 feet above the ground. No pilot would consider doing that.
    Everything about this is ****ing terrifying.

    People are most afraid of rough landings and crosswind landing videos are speccy but once you learn to fly, you learn to fear the take-off most of all. Simply because if something goes wrong in the landing, you've got options whereas immediately after the take-off, you're low and slow so recovery from a problem is basically impossible. So, mentally, pilots tend to breathe a small sigh of relief once you get above 1500' because you've got some speed and altitude to work with. Dropping half your height at 1000' and then not gaining it back after you firewall the throttles, that's nightmarish.

    I maintain they're going to pin it on the drivers, though.
    Dan likes this.

  10. #70
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    I think Boeing has mismanaged the PR side of both this at JT610 so thoroughly since about November that they might not have the public credit in the bank to do so tbh. People seem deeply unimpressed by their behaviour in the last few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    scientificamerican.com_despite-similarities-are-the-2-recent-737-max-8-crashes-a-coincidence/

    Discussion with ex-Boeing engineer. Nicely biased, not necessarily wrong though. The interesting feature I found was I thought the MCAS was part of the autopilot, but it is actually a separate automation that works when the airplane is being flown manually . Which seems to contradict the other pilot stated regards switching the autopilot off, allowing him to retake control? Or else that was a different issue?
    Yeah it's something which lies "underneath" the autopilot and it basically exists because without it, the re-engine means the plane behaves in a nose-up situation in a manner that violates FAA certification requirements. So you need a semi-permanent system to correct that nose-up tendency to fall within those requirements.

    This is, of course, somewhat unusual for a Boeing. If you fly an Airbus though, you have a much more comprehensive - and, quite frankly, much more sophisticated, better designed, and more robust - package of computerised flight protection. Unless you are truly and utterly incompetent (and it's worth noting that in that particular instance, the standard flight protections were disabled, which is why a certifiable moron was able to fly the plane straight into a stall situation and keep it there), a modern Airbus plane simply will not let you fly the plane in a manner which is manifestly dangerous and will compromise the aerodynamic stability of the plane. As much as this is criticised (sometimes with good reason), this system has actually saved lives in the past (there is another well-known example but I can't remember exactly what it is now). But it's a totally different philosophy to how Boeing planes are supposed to operate; for Boeing to throw in this very Airbus-esque system onto the plane to get it certified really should raise significant questions about the design and certification process of this plane.

    Again: I'm still wondering if the real problem here is not MCAS, but the reason MCAS exists in the first place.
    Last edited by Spark; 14-03-2019 at 04:20 AM.

  11. #71
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    Yeah that goes to my previous question. Was the system itself working as intended? That'll be an important question if Boeing is to really be held to account.

    Boeing have a somewhat rarefied rep in the industry. They own the company that produce the (****ing exxy) approach plates everyone uses (Jepps) and obviously have huge and sweet fingers in various federal government/weapons pies. So this won't kill them but it'd be nice if people at least got the sense that perhaps everything isn't as it seems. Well known hystericals like Mary Schiavo have been banging on about them their cosy relationship with the FAA for years.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 14-03-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  12. #72
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    Boeing isn't quite the same company as the one that originally produced game-changers like the 737 Classic, 747, 777 etc. A lot of its managment these days were McDonnell-Douglas people, and there's definitely still grumblings about how that's changed the company since the move to Chicago.

    But yeah nothing will kill them. It's still basically a two-shop town, given that no one seems especially eager to buy Chinese planes (unless they were told to, of course).

  13. #73
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    In better news for Boeing, the 777X got revealed to the world (well, to employees) last night:



    Quite a looker.

  14. #74
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    Gotta love that the recorders have been sent to the BEA. I'm sure any adverse findings will be received with the utmost credulity and professionalism by anyone connected to the aircraft and its certification.

  15. #75
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    In [Trump's] words, [the Boeing 737] “sucked.” The president said Boeing 737s paled in comparison to the Boeing 757, known as Trump Force One, which he owns as a personal jet, according to White House and transportation officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. He questioned why Boeing would keep building the model and opined that he never would have bought a 737 for the Trump Shuttle....

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