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Thread: In A Libertarian state how would the poor survive?

  1. #46
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Why would you need strong private property rights if everyone is inherently good
    Nah look, I canít speak for everyone but my personal belief is that many people are bad and thatís why Iím a libertarian.

    I love that in Anilís stupid post he named Shapiro and Petersen as required reading when neither are libertarian. Ayn Rand isnít the defining voice some people seem to think either - some of her stuff is good but itís also highly problematic in places.

    I think Niall asked a fair question here but some of the posts, in particular Anilís absolute mess, are why itís just not worth the effort to tackle seriously.

  2. #47
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    I don't know mate, I love it when Anil posts.
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  3. #48
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I don't know mate, I love it when Anil posts.
    My favorite bit was where he used failures of government to argue against Libertarianism.
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  4. #49
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    My favorite bit was where he used failures of government to argue against Libertarianism.
    Itís the wrong type of government you see
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  5. #50
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    It’s the wrong type of government you see
    Haha, a bit like how Venezuela is not true socialism, or Soviet Russia was not truly communist.
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  6. #51
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend zorax's Avatar
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    Is the USA a failed capitalist state
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  7. #52
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    If not for capitalism, most of the world would still be largely poor.
    Most of the world still is largely poor. Unless of course you think earning $4 a day doesn't make you poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    It is the greatest creator of wealth and it is evidenced by the fact that even the poorest in the most capitalistic countries (or traditionally capitalistic) live significantly better than most of the world and most people that have ever existed in history.
    Slaves lived better in 1850 than in 1750. What's your point?

    The US is more "capitalist" than most developed countries and their poorest are far worse off.

  8. #53
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    Most of the world still is largely poor. Unless of course you think earning $4 a day doesn't make you poor.
    Yes, they were far poorer 200 years ago, that's the point. In the last 30 years alone extreme poverty has been cut down by 50% around the world - and that's a conservative estimate. That is a great feat.

    Slaves lived better in 1850 than in 1750. What's your point?

    The US is more "capitalist" than most developed countries and their poorest are far worse off.
    what utter tripe. The poor in USA are richer than most people around the world. What in god's name are you talking about?

    The USA still is a fairly capitalist society but from about 1900 onwards, it has regressed massively. As I stated in the above, the government spent less than 10% of the GDP, in recent years that figure is generally between 33-38%.
    Last edited by Ikki; 13-07-2018 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #54
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Yes, they were far poorer 200 years ago, that's the point. In the last 30 years alone extreme poverty has been cut down by 50% around the world - and that's a conservative estimate. That is a great feat.
    How is this a response to what I said? You said if not for capitalism most of the world would still be largely poor. Most of the world still is largely poor.

    Is thing thing on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    what utter tripe. The poorest people in USA are richer than most people around the world. What in god's name are you talking about?

    The USA still is a fairly capitalist society but from about 1900 onwards, it has regressed massively. As I stated in the above, the government spent less than 10% of the GDP, in recent years that figure is generally between 33-38%.
    I didn't say otherwise. You've misread. I said the US is more capitalist than most other developed countries and yet among developed countries, the poor in America are worse off than the poor in many other less capitalist, developed countries.

    Your implicit suggestion that the more capitalist a country is, the better off the poor are is demonstrably false.

  10. #55
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    How is this a response to what I said? You said if not for capitalism most of the world would still be largely poor. Most of the world still is largely poor.

    Is thing thing on?
    That's because of the varied definition of poor and our changing the context of it as we become more wealthy. The standard of living for poor people in most developed countries now is the standard of the wealthy hundreds of years ago. People, even in relatively rich countries, were dying of starvation and simple illnesses/diseases that caused death fairly commonly. Even in Africa, since 2000 their average per capita income has risen by 50%. One has to have perspective on these things.


    I didn't say otherwise. You've misread. I said the US is more capitalist than most other developed countries and yet among developed countries, the poor in America are worse off than the poor in many other less capitalist, developed countries.

    Your implicit suggestion that the more capitalist a country is, the better off the poor are is demonstrably false.
    Says who? And how do you measure that? America is more capitalist in reputation but it is dependant on how you define it - which makes your premise and conclusion flawed. In Economic Freedom index, America ranks lower than Australia and Denmark - ergo less capitalistic. And it goes far deeper than your simplistic argument: America subsidises the world for much of their defence and a multitude of other things - like medical research. It goes even further as many countries around the world are funding their programs through debt and money printing. It's the equivalent to thinking you're rich when you've bought everything on your credit card. The bill comes due eventually.
    Last edited by Ikki; 13-07-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  11. #56
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    That's because of the varied definition of poor and our changing the context of it as we become more wealthy. The standard of living for poor people in most developed countries now is the standard of the wealthy hundreds of years ago. People, even in relatively rich countries, were dying of starvation and simple illnesses/diseases that caused death fairly commonly. Even in Africa, since 2000 their average per capita income has risen by 50%. One has to have a perspective on these things.
    Clearly you have no perspective. The same logic can be used to justify any system that has rising standards of living be it across decades or centuries. There were rising standards of living in Nazi Germany. Does that justify fascism? The same can be said for some communist countries, and some slave societies. It is not a valid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Says who? And how do you measure that? America is more capitalist in reputation but it is dependant how you define it. In Economic Freedom index, America ranks lower than Australia and Denmark - ergo less capitalistic.
    So assuming that economic freedom and capitalism are interchangeable synonyms, which they're not, you're arguing that my claim of America being more capitalist than most other developed countries is false because two other countries out of dozens, are supposedly more capitalist than the US? lol................what?

    Poverty is routinely measured in relative and absolute terms. And the US fares worse on both than a host of European and other developed countries. I can't help that it contradicts your free market zealotry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    And it goes far deeper than your simplistic argument: America subsidises the world for much of their defence and a multitude of other things - like medical research. It goes even further as many countries around the world are funding their programs through debt and money printing. It's the equivalent to thinking you're rich when you've bought everything on your credit card. The bill comes due eventually.
    They also subsidise their own multinationals who rape underdeveloped countries. But that's apparently fine under the rubric of free trade, yeah?...

    lol and yeah America would never fund their programs through debt would they? They only have the highest absolute debt in the world, the 9th or 10th highest relative to GDP, and the fifth highest on a per capita basis.

    God you talk some utter **** on here.

  12. #57
    International Coach trundler's Avatar
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    If you're poor under capitalism you're not actually poor because you're probably using the wrong definition of poor. At least you have footpaths to sleep on. Gotcha.
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  13. #58
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    America being funded through government debt contradicts them being the most capitalist country around

  14. #59
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    America being funded through government debt contradicts them being the most capitalist country around
    Nobody said the US was the most capitalist.

  15. #60
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    Nobody said the US was the most capitalist.
    Okay but you said it was more capitalist than most. You then highlighted their ridiculous levels of government debt.

    America long since stopped being a capitalist dream.

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