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Thread: In A Libertarian state how would the poor survive?

  1. #31
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    I see.
    Yeah...charities never help. Like, people don't care at all about their neighbours or their community...

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    In a libertarian state you'll be able to harvest the organs of others, especially the poor, and sell them to the highest bidder. That's got to be a vote winner.

    I know you think it sounds silly, but believe me, once you privatise anything to do with health, you're going down the slippery slope
    What's funnier is that you probably believe this.
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  2. #32
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend zorax's Avatar
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    Burgey's clearly speaking tongue in cheek.






    No way he'd donate one whole dollar to charity.
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  3. #33
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Claiming organ harvesting will become legal is the Libertarian version of claiming Progressivism will lead to acceptance of Paedophilia.

    I'll leave it to other posters to decide how likely that is.
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  4. #34
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Or thinking that believing in public health care means youíre on the slippery slope to communism...

    A lot of wealthy people donate to charity because itís tax deductible. Once thereís no taxation at all to minimise, whereís the incentive to give?


  5. #35
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Or thinking that believing in public health care means you’re on the slippery slope to communism...

    A lot of wealthy people donate to charity because it’s tax deductible. Once there’s no taxation at all to minimise, where’s the incentive to give?
    You're right, people are evil and don't do anything for others...let's elect them and allow them to tax us into oblivion.

    christ, if these are your objections then I really have to wonder about you Burgey. I actually gave you more credit.
    Last edited by Ikki; 12-07-2018 at 05:16 AM.
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  6. #36
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    For a bloke whose head is as inflated as yours, a lot sure goes over it. Youíre the one espousing charity as a replacement vehicle for the welfare state. Itís really incumbent on you to demonstrate itíll work. You know, just like it did for the poor before the welfare state came into existence....
    zorax, Daemon, Anil and 1 others like this.

  7. #37
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You're right, people are evil and don't do anything for others...let's elect them and allow them to tax us into oblivion.

    christ, if these are your objections then I really have to wonder about you Burgey. I actually gave you more credit.
    Thatís ok, I donít give you any credit, and never really have.
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  8. #38
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niall View Post
    I know they are some who would consider themselves libertarians here which is fine as there is elements I and am sure many others can admire.

    However one issue I have always been perplexed by and an accusation aimed at the movement is, Libertarians offers nothing for the poor and most vulnerable in the world. This thread was inspired by a chap who is aiming to represent the LP party in 2020 who is adamant the welfare state needs to die as obviously those that depend on it will all instantly go get well paid jobs.

    Feedback appreciated.
    • there won't be any poor people in a libertarian system since the big bad govt won't be stealing from its citizens. people will be either rich, comfortably well-off or dead (the dead ones would be the unproductive people who are a burden on society, they are takers/moochers so they don't matter anyway).

    • corporations will trickle down their profits to their employees. everyone will get exactly the salary, bonus and recognition that they deserve irrespective of gender, race, age, sexual orientation.

    • private healthcare will engender competition and drive down the cost of services and medicine and will make it affordable for everyone to get high quality goods and services. in fact the price of all essential goods and services will become dirt-cheap because of the laissez faire free market competition. even in sectors where monopolies happen (now that anti-trust laws are out of the picture), these benevolent behemoth corporations will honorably refuse to take advantage of a captive market.

    • the c-level people are for the most part honest, hard-working people anyway and the few unscrupulous, unworthy ones will be weeded out by highly ethical corporate policies. nepotism will be unheard of.

    • shady companies and unethical business practices will be punished by the all-powerful consumer just refusing to buy their goods and services and by their more ethical competitors.

    • there will be charities run by rich individuals and corporations (freed up from having to practice charity to reduce their taxable income, they will now be motivated by genuine philanthropy) for the disabled and generally unproductive people who are not supported by their family.

    • once the deadly malaise of political correctness and social justice posturing are weeded out from society, an incorruptible volunteer army and police force will make sure laws are enforced and borders are protected. crime will be scarce but an equally incorruptible and completely unbiased judiciary and the justice system will make sure criminals are punished and victims get justice. there won't be any more racial tension, not even the concept of a minority group, everyone will be treated equally.

    • every country will be self-sufficient and its citizens rich and happy so there won't be really any need to migrate to another country. when it happens, it will be 100% legal migration.

    • all religious groups will be treated equally and without prejudice. atheists, socialists, transsexuals and other enemies of a free society will be eradicated.

    • ayn rand, jordan peterson, ben shapiro will be required reading for children starting from elementary school.

    • politicians will become more or less powerless and so money in elections and business lobbies will become obsolete. as a result all politicians will be honest and devoted to public service, corruption will be a thing of the past.

    • there will be no wars or terrorism of course because why would happy people want to fight?!

    • unfettered by the pernicious environment protection policies and in the absence of rubbish conspiracy theories like climate change, all kinds of technology will flourish. pollution will be dealt with somehow by better technology. if plant and animal life die off, it's because it is necessary for human survival. in the highly unlikely event of coastal cities going underwater (highly unlikely because of course climate change is pure hogwash), advanced technology will help build underwater cities or cities in outer space.

    • flying pigs and unicorns will be common-place in all libertarian countries and will become the national bird/animal in those countries.
    Last edited by Anil; 12-07-2018 at 08:47 AM.
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  9. #39
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend zorax's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong...

    But it seems Libertarians believe all humans are inherently good and capable of living well together peacefully if left to their own devices, and governments by their nature subvert this, and that we don't need an authority who controls us all with the threat of violence in order to ensure we all live well together.

    While all non libertarians feel people (some if not all) are inherently, at their core, evil and we need governments to ensure these evil people don't **** over the rest of us, and they're willing to sacrifice some of our freedoms and rights for that.

  10. #40
    vcs
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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend vcs's Avatar
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    Why would you need strong private property rights if everyone is inherently good
    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Chix love a man with a checkered posting history.

  11. #41
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorax View Post
    But it seems Libertarians believe all humans are inherently good and capable of living well together peacefully if left to their own devices, and governments by their nature subvert this, and that we don't need an authority who controls us all with the threat of violence in order to ensure we all live well together.
    exactly and i just made that case (more or less since there are some exceptions that even libertarians can't stomach) in my post above...
    Last edited by Anil; 12-07-2018 at 09:18 AM.

  12. #42
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    For a bloke whose head is as inflated as yours, a lot sure goes over it. You’re the one espousing charity as a replacement vehicle for the welfare state. It’s really incumbent on you to demonstrate it’ll work. You know, just like it did for the poor before the welfare state came into existence....
    I've demonstrated that already umpteen times on this board: America until 1913 didn't have an income tax and the government spending accounted for single digits in terms of GDP - USA was no welfare state and most people that needed relief relied on charity.



    In that time, it became the richest country in the world - and possibly all of mankind. People didn't flock to America from all corners of the world to be fleeced, they did so to get rich and they continued to do so as their emigrating family members became more wealthy and sent for them. People that need charity/welfare are those that cannot look after themselves; they are not Uni students who don't want to work while they study or people who have made negligent life choices that wish for other people to subsidise their lifestyle.

    It's simple logic: without the ability to build up capital - or money - you cannot be more charitable. Your retort was that rich people are just evading taxes - as if Rockefeller, Carnegie, Gates et al don't have souls because they managed to amass a fortune. Are you more benevolent because you vote for a welfare state you hardly contribute towards? Funny stuff.

    You implicate the evilness in the common people, yet your solution is the welfare state. If you don't see how contradictory your reasoning is then your head is more inflated than mine (pause). The wealthier people not only contribute towards charity but they also pay the most taxes. Also, ya know, as an important aside: rich people creating jobs is more beneficial than a payout.

    And what would we have ever done without the welfare state...



    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    That’s ok, I don’t give you any credit, and never really have.
    Well that's the difference between us. Even though your arguments are embarrassingly flawed, I entertain you in the off chance you might actually have something intelligible to say considering you're probably twice my age. If you entered into any of these discussions in good faith you may have learned something by now.

    But I'm still waiting patiently, almost 60k posts later, for you to make a cogent argument. In the meantime, post more because when you're serious at least we get to see this pretzel logic and know what to avoid. When you're sarcastic it doesn't reveal it adequately. I guess that could be by design: hide behind one liners and subbing other posters to evade delving into a thought process you yourself haven't worked out.
    Last edited by Ikki; 12-07-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  13. #43
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Why would you need strong private property rights if everyone is inherently good
    Not everything comes down to evil, there are legitimate misunderstandings or competing interests. We also have homicide laws even though a small number of people actually commit homicide.

    Libertarianism really implies that most people are good and are likely to be corrupted when they have the power to coerce others. The idea can be a functional argument as much as it is moral.
    Last edited by Ikki; 12-07-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  14. #44
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    • there won't be any poor people in a libertarian system since the big bad govt won't be stealing from its citizens. people will be either rich, comfortably well-off or dead (the dead ones would be the unproductive people who are a burden on society, they are takers/moochers so they don't matter anyway).
    People will be richer, there will always be relatively poorer people but they will be better off being in an economy that can easily give them an income, rather than one mangled by a government that will slow down economic development. Contrary to popular leftist belief, many people hold themselves back through a lack of discipline and effort. Otherwise, in a free market, you are far more likely to climb the economic ladder, which is why the freest economic nations tend to be the richest.

    • corporations will trickle down their profits to their employees. everyone will get exactly the salary, bonus and recognition that they deserve irrespective of gender, race, age, sexual orientation.
    Gotta love how you use leftist dog whistles but this is more or less true.

    • private healthcare will engender competition and drive down the cost of services and medicine and will make it affordable for everyone to get high quality goods and services. in fact the price of all essential goods and services will become dirt-cheap because of the laissez faire free market competition. even in sectors where monopolies happen (now that anti-trust laws are out of the picture), these benevolent behemoth corporations will honorably refuse to take advantage of a captive market.
    No, I don't think everyone will ever get the best of everything. We are living in the real world, not some marxist utopia. But, it will be more accessible to more people.

    • the c-level people are for the most part honest, hard-working people anyway and the few unscrupulous, unworthy ones will be weeded out by highly ethical corporate policies. nepotism will be unheard of.
    Companies that don't have the government to coerce others to be subsidised or regulated in favour of will have to meet the demands of its customers as that will be the only way they actually make money.

    • shady companies and unethical business practices will be punished by the all-powerful consumer just refusing to buy their goods and services and by their more ethical competitors.
    Yes, people have brains and tend to use it more when they don't see the government as their matriarch. I know, hard to believe.

    • there will be charities run by rich individuals and corporations (freed up from having to practice charity to reduce their taxable income, they will now be motivated by genuine philanthropy) for the disabled and generally unproductive people who are not supported by their family.
    Yes but not just rich individuals, ordinary individuals can give more.

    • once the deadly malaise of political correctness and social justice posturing are weeded out from society, an incorruptible volunteer army and police force will make sure laws are enforced and borders are protected. crime will be scarce but an equally incorruptible and completely unbiased judiciary and the justice system will make sure criminals are punished and victims get justice. there won't be any more racial tension, not even the concept of a minority group, everyone will be treated equally.
    Are you speaking about anarchism? Libertarians do believe in government too, you know this right?

    Stupid people and political correctness will always exist, they just won't have the power to become fascists.

    • every country will be self-sufficient and its citizens rich and happy so there won't be really any need to migrate to another country. when it happens, it will be 100% legal migration.
    Erm, maybe. Probably not.

    • all religious groups will be treated equally and without prejudice. atheists, socialists, transsexuals and other enemies of a free society will be eradicated.
    By government sure. By normal people? Nah, again, let's stick to reality.

    • ayn rand, jordan peterson, ben shapiro will be required reading for children starting from elementary school.
    If only, but libertarians don't force people to learn anything: freedom, remember?

    • politicians will become more or less powerless and so money in elections and business lobbies will become obsolete. as a result all politicians will be honest and devoted to public service, corruption will be a thing of the past.
    Actually, it's more likely they will be more influential locally which will keep them more honest. But politicians are likely to find ignorant people who will give up their rights for goodies, but we can hope they won't I guess with everybody reading Mises and Friedman

    • there will be no wars or terrorism of course because why would happy people want to fight?!
    Nah, ignorant people who demonise others will always exist.

    • unfettered by the pernicious environment protection policies and in the absence of rubbish conspiracy theories like climate change, all kinds of technology will flourish. pollution will be dealt with somehow by better technology. if plant and animal life die off, it's because it is necessary for human survival. in the highly unlikely event of coastal cities going underwater (highly unlikely because of course climate change is pure hogwash), advanced technology will help build underwater cities or cities in outer space.
    Well, this one has gotten off the deep end. You can be a libertarian and believe in climate change. You just won't expect the government to fix it.

    • flying pigs and unicorns will be common-place in all libertarian countries and will become the national bird/animal in those countries.
    Again, we aren't talking about a marxist utopia. Real world only please. Thanks.
    Last edited by Ikki; 12-07-2018 at 12:49 PM.
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  15. #45
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Recently been watching Yaron Brook, he's good on the economic stuff and entertaining.

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