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Thread: Change in religious views

  1. #61
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    How does one reconcile supporting notions of enforced monogamy while ensuring the primacy of #freedom(TM)?

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    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    You said.that is patently false... government today does a better job than the church ever did. Even if not perfect and/or sometimes corrupt.
    So because the church, acting as a state in times that are technologically unrecognisable from our own, did a "worse" job than modern (notionally secular) states at providing welfare, that makes the idea that the church would be a better provider of welfare "patently false".

    Just no. The only way the two examples are both apples is that they were both states. Of course the church was corrupt, violent and played politics. They were a government. It has no bearing on how they would do in an incarnation that's closer to a charity/nfp organisation than anything else. That's before we get to the impossibility of defining "good" wrt welfare to a degree that you could call an evaluation of any approach "patently false".
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  3. #63
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    Churches continue to be corrupt, violent and play politics, even when they aren't governments.
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  4. #64
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    How does one reconcile supporting notions of enforced monogamy while ensuring the primacy of #freedom(TM)?
    Depends if one is ignoring the mischaracterisations of dishonest reporters and approaching the point the speaker was actually making.

    Also, can we not do this again? There is what amounts to an essay on the topic earlier in the thread.


  5. #65
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Churches continue to be corrupt, violent and play politics, even when they aren't governments.
    Eh. They're a mixed bag now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Depends if one is ignoring the mischaracterisations of dishonest reporters and approaching the point the speaker was actually making.

    Also, can we not do this again? There is what amounts to an essay on the topic earlier in the thread.
    He's talking about Ikki, not Jordan Peterson - who is about as far from a libertarian as it gets.
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  7. #67
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    Can we keep the monogamy/Peterson stuff to one thread?
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  8. #68
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    So because the church, acting as a state in times that are technologically unrecognisable from our own, did a "worse" job than modern (notionally secular) states at providing welfare, that makes the idea that the church would be a better provider of welfare "patently false".

    Just no. The only way the two examples are both apples is that they were both states. Of course the church was corrupt, violent and played politics. They were a government. It has no bearing on how they would do in an incarnation that's closer to a charity/nfp organisation than anything else. That's before we get to the impossibility of defining "good" wrt welfare to a degree that you could call an evaluation of any approach "patently false".
    Dude the church is still corrupt.

    Go to any third world country and look at some of the "aid work" they do. To be fair that is also true of a huge chunk of secular organisations as well. But the church is particularly fond of the funding model of raising funds for its constituents to buy airfares to go and take photos with little black babies, or to set up its members as missionaries under the guise of aid; these are best case scenarios and not really true corruption, but corruption itself definitely happens as well.

    Take a look at what the church is doing in the Polynesian community and the islands. It's a disgrace.

  9. #69
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Dude the church is still corrupt.

    Go to any third world country and look at some of the "aid work" they do. To be fair that is also true of a huge chunk of secular organisations as well. But the church is particularly fond of the funding model of raising funds for its constituents to buy airfares to go and take photos with little black babies, or to set up its members as missionaries under the guise of aid; these are best case scenarios and not really true corruption, but corruption itself definitely happens as well.

    Take a look at what the church is doing in the Polynesian community and the islands. It's a disgrace.
    To be fair I would put this stuff as endemic to the work rather than the organisation. The business of aid really is murky, talk to people in Geneva about the ICRC face to face and they'll readily admit that a huge amount of their money goes to straight-up marketing and achieving "market share".
    Last edited by Spark; 29-05-2018 at 08:15 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    To be fair I would put this stuff as endemic to the work rather than the organisation. The business of aid really is murky, talk to people in Geneva about the ICRC face to face and they'll readily admit that a huge amount of their money goes to straight-up marketing and achieving "market share".
    Yeah, I'll admit there's a sliding scale here. From my experience many of the church organisations are on the wrong end of that. There are some that are good though.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Dude the church is still corrupt.

    Go to any third world country and look at some of the "aid work" they do. To be fair that is also true of a huge chunk of secular organisations as well. But the church is particularly fond of the funding model of raising funds for its constituents to buy airfares to go and take photos with little black babies, or to set up its members as missionaries under the guise of aid; these are best case scenarios and not really true corruption, but corruption itself definitely happens as well.

    Take a look at what the church is doing in the Polynesian community and the islands. It's a disgrace.
    That's fine, but as Spark said that often comes with the territory. We're also comparing them to governments. How are the corruption track records of the governments of these third world countries?

  12. #72
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    That's fine, but as Spark said that often comes with the territory. We're also comparing them to governments. How are the corruption track records of the governments of these third world countries?
    If we're talking about aid comparatively, shouldn't we talk more about Western government aid programs rather than the failings of warlords and dictators to make a proper like-for-like comparison?

    Even then though it's not a straightforward comparison because private aid companies have quasi-commercial and market share concerns to deal with, whilst governments are often taking diplomatic "soft power" and geopolitical factors into account too.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    If we're talking about aid comparatively, shouldn't we talk more about Western government aid programs rather than the failings of warlords and dictators to make a proper like-for-like comparison?

    Even then though it's not a straightforward comparison because private aid companies have quasi-commercial and market share concerns to deal with, whilst governments are often taking diplomatic "soft power" and geopolitical factors into account too.
    Absolutely. The only reason I even started posting was in response to a comparison between modern western governments and the Byzantine empire and the track record of church organisations in third world countries though.

    I get that it's not a simple comparison too, which is why phrasing like "patently false" rubs me up the wrong way.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    So because the church, acting as a state in times that are technologically unrecognisable from our own, did a "worse" job than modern (notionally secular) states at providing welfare, that makes the idea that the church would be a better provider of welfare "patently false".

    Just no. The only way the two examples are both apples is that they were both states. Of course the church was corrupt, violent and played politics. They were a government. It has no bearing on how they would do in an incarnation that's closer to a charity/nfp organisation than anything else. That's before we get to the impossibility of defining "good" wrt welfare to a degree that you could call an evaluation of any approach "patently false".
    See what Ikki said... he was implying (and stated) that the state taking over from the church (due to the separation of church and state) on welfare had a net negative effect.... that statement is patently false. While not perfect, state welfare today (regardless how it has been managed) is better than the church ever affected.... The church nowadays (having lost most of its government influence in the western world), concentrates more on welfare, but letting it take back control of welfare would be foolhardy. Nevermind that I hate talking about the 'church' as a singular thing than rather talking about welfare agencies (church aligned or not); but they suffer from a great deal of corruption as well.
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  15. #75
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    Seems like this is one of those agenda things. If you like churches then governments are corrupt. If you dislike churches then they are corrupt. There are so many cases of corruption in both that it seems the problem is with people, not ideologies.
    Shri likes this.

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