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Thread: Change in religious views

  1. #46
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    The problem is the same no matter which institution because people who gain that much power are bound to abuse it. I think with Catholicism and especially Islam having a state or state-like central authority is going to breed corruption, especially when seen as the face of an entire religion.

    Someone else made a point re churches not doing enough and in some ways there is validity there. The government has overtaken a lot of the functions churches would do when it came to welfare and charity. I think overall this has had a net negative effect. It is important that we live a communicative social existence and churches, especially when they were more frequented and taken more seriously, provided a much needed link between people in society in a way that government simply cannot replicate.
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    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    The problem is the same no matter which institution because people who gain that much power are bound to abuse it. I think with Catholicism and especially Islam having a state or state-like central authority is going to breed corruption, especially when seen as the face of an entire religion.

    Someone else made a point re churches not doing enough and in some ways there is validity there. The government has overtaken a lot of the functions churches would do when it came to welfare and charity. I think overall this has had a net negative effect. It is important that we live a communicative social existence and churches, especially when they were more frequented and taken more seriously, provided a much needed link between people in society in a way that government simply cannot replicate.
    The churches were the government, largely, since the time of Charlemagne... it is not until recently that the idea of separate church and state really took hold. And much like long ago it was used as power over people as much as any real charity.
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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    The churches were the government, largely, since the time of Charlemagne... it is not until recently that the idea of separate church and state really took hold. And much like long ago it was used as power over people as much as any real charity.
    It took a generation long war and most of Central Europe being razed to the ground for even people to start grudgingly tolerating the idea of state and church being at all separate, because the other option was finishing the remaining half of the HRE left alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    It took a generation long war and most of Central Europe being razed to the ground for even people to start grudgingly tolerating the idea of state and church being at all separate, because the other option was finishing the remaining half of the HRE left alive.
    And then there is only a few of those in the western world; and the number of times you hear things like 'but we are a christian country'..... nah religion is still an indoctrinated view, even if they do not realise it, for most of the worlds population.

    Never ask a question of somebody like 'Well, would you still be Christian if you were brought up in Saudi Arabia rather than South Africa?"... learnt that the hard way!


  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    That's a bit much.
    Referring to the bullshit Gandhi quote tbf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Haha I found it really amusing that this is seemingly a prominent enough thing to be mentioned by name.
    Didn't even realise this is a thing tbf

  7. #52
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    The churches were the government, largely, since the time of Charlemagne... it is not until recently that the idea of separate church and state really took hold. And much like long ago it was used as power over people as much as any real charity.
    I'm talking about the early 20th century, not the time of Charlemagne.

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    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I'm talking about the early 20th century, not the time of Charlemagne.
    Your implication is that the church did and or would do a better job than the state did... I pointed out that for 100's of years the church had a chance to show better judgment and did nothing but play politics and were just as bad or not worse than our current states. So the current 'good' the church does is because they no longer have the power they did and have been separated form state in our modern western world. It is a crock of **** to believe that handing over social welfare and charity to the church and giving it more power would lead to anything but a different set of people producing the same results. That is at best airy fairy thinking.

  9. #54
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    Your implication is that the church did and or would do a better job than the state did... I pointed out that for 100's of years the church had a chance to show better judgment and did nothing but play politics and were just as bad or not worse than our current states. So the current 'good' the church does is because they no longer have the power they did and have been separated form state in our modern western world. It is a crock of **** to believe that handing over social welfare and charity to the church and giving it more power would lead to anything but a different set of people producing the same results. That is at best airy fairy thinking.
    You have cherry-picked what to read to come to that conclusion. Read what I said again: I think with Catholicism and especially Islam having a state or state-like central authority is going to breed corruption

    Does this mean if the church replaces the state it will become good? No. The point of the 20th century examples was to show you when not being the state and still being an agent for charity that the church does a better job for society as a whole. Aside from the direct help, it helps indirectly as people don't look for the government to help them in terms of welfare which is the worst solution in the long run.

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    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You have cherry-picked what to read to come to that conclusion. Read what I said again: I think with Catholicism and especially Islam having a state or state-like central authority is going to breed corruption

    Does this mean if the church replaces the state it will become good? No. The point of the 20th century examples was to show you when not being the state and still being an agent for charity that the church does a better job for society as a whole. Aside from the direct help, it helps indirectly as people don't look for the government to help them in terms of welfare which is the worst solution in the long run.
    You said.
    "The government has overtaken a lot of the functions churches would do when it came to welfare and charity. I think overall this has had a net negative effect."
    that is patently false... government today does a better job than the church ever did. Even if not perfect and/or sometimes corrupt.

    If you want to talk about the effect small churches and groups in communities can have, sure, normally a net positive effect on communities and welfare; yes I can get behind that... but that has nothing to do with church or religion it is about people wanting to do good. In smaller communities were people help each other it is easily observed. And this point has also been discussed to death regarding old style 'villages; versus large cities and how people behave towards each other etc etc etc.

    Hence my point nothing to do with church...

  11. #56
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    You said.that is patently false... government today does a better job than the church ever did. Even if not perfect and/or sometimes corrupt.
    But what I didn't say is "the church should be the government". Merely that in terms of welfare and charity the church is better. Read what I've written, not what you want to read into it.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    But what I didn't say is "the church should be the government". Merely that in terms of welfare and charity the church is better. Read what I've written, not what you want to read into it.
    And I disagree with that as patently false...

  13. #58
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    And I disagree with that as patently false...
    Welfare states do not work and increase the cost of providing welfare. Disagree as much as you want, but patently false it isn't.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Welfare states do not work and increase the cost of providing welfare. Disagree as much as you want, but patently false it isn't.
    Where the hell did the welfare state came from in this discussion? I said it is patently false that the church would do a better job than the state on welfare and charity. All states/countries are concerned by the welfare of their citizens... how much they do about it and the way in which it is handled is a separate issue. And none want to or ever will hand back control of that to any church or religious body, the government's will help fund and support, to a certain extent, welfare and charity organisations, religious or not. But those organisations will never have the ability to help the welfare of the citizens on a large scale.

  15. #60
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    Where the hell did the welfare state came from in this discussion? I said it is patently false that the church would do a better job than the state on welfare and charity. All states/countries are concerned by the welfare of their citizens... how much they do about it and the way in which it is handled is a separate issue. And none want to or ever will hand back control of that to any church or religious body, the government's will help fund and support, to a certain extent, welfare and charity organisations, religious or not. But those organisations will never have the ability to help the welfare of the citizens on a large scale.
    All you're doing is making false assertions.

    Welfare and charity discussion comes from my post which you quoted. Stop quoting me and talking past me if you want to engage. Economically the welfare state is not viably run by the government. This has been proven umpteen times.

    The famous example is the USA. Before Johnson's War on Poverty the US poverty rate had been declining from 34% in 1950 to 17% in 1965. Since then and over 20 Trillion dollars later, the poverty rate has remained largely the same, fluctuating little.

    My point isn't that the church solves poverty but that it allows for society to honestly support those people who do need help and create a community to which they can become part of. These will have greater lasting effects then getting a cheque in the mail.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-05-2018 at 04:59 AM.
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