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Thread: Change in religious views

  1. #151
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Nope. Obviously, no one can "know" what is not known. That is a pointless position because it is simply semantics.

    But you can reject believing in a god. That is what the word means. It is in direct contrast to theism, which is the belief that at least one god exists.
    Those are just words too, imo.

    When someone rejects belief, it has to do with some probability exercise going on in their heads.

    Atheists' brains come up with "don't believe because probably doesn't exist" and I think that's a wrong analysis because it doesn't take into account all the stuff they cannot know.

    That is not to say that theists believe because of a similar probability exercise. Belief is more complicated.
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    This is what I was getting at a couple of pages back.



    You're not an atheist if you "don't know", you're an agnostic.
    Which category do I fall into if I reject all the existing mainstream religions (because most of the specific claims they make are demonstrably nonsense) but can't be bothered to argue against some abstract, vaguely defined notion of a deity that may or may not exist?
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  3. #153
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Which category do I fall into if I reject all the existing mainstream religions (because most of the specific claims they make are demonstrably nonsense) but can't be bothered to argue against some abstract, vaguely defined notion of a deity that may or may not exist?
    Reasonable.

  4. #154
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Cut it with this kind of bullshit. I understand full well what you're saying atheism is, I think you're wrong. That's not how it manifests both in practice and frankly in pretty standard definitions (which you were good enough to reference). Belief that there is no god/deities is part of boilerplate atheism as it currently exists and cherry picking your arguments isn't going to change that.

    I could be an asshole and question your capacity to comprehend that argument, but that'd be a dick move and not conducive to a semi-decent conversation.
    Dude I literally supplied you with a broad range of definitions of the word from bloody wikipedia, of all places.

    I am an atheist, I am a proponent of atheism. Do you expect me to sit here and accept your idea that zealotry is a feature of atheism when it is clearly not the way I behave? It is offensive and stupid. I don't even think zealotry is necessarily feature of religion, and yet here you are expecting me to accept this as a feature of my life choices.

    Again, your failure to understand a word doesn't give you the right to call atheism a belief system and paint it with whatever brush you choose to.
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  5. #155
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Which category do I fall into if I reject all the existing mainstream religions (because most of the specific claims they make are demonstrably nonsense) but can't be bothered to argue against some abstract, vaguely defined notion of a deity that may or may not exist?
    lazeist?
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  6. #156
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Those are just words too, imo.

    When someone rejects belief, it has to do with some probability exercise going on in their heads.

    Atheists' brains come up with "don't believe because probably doesn't exist" and I think that's a wrong analysis because it doesn't take into account all the stuff they cannot know.
    No.

    This is simple. It's the rejection of belief in a particular idea, that idea being that at least one god exists. It can come through probability or logic or skepticism or whatever way you want to come to the conclusion that you're not going to believe in that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Which category do I fall into if I reject all the existing mainstream religions (because most of the specific claims they make are demonstrably nonsense) but can't be bothered to argue against some abstract, vaguely defined notion of a deity that may or may not exist?
    You're an atheist. You reject abstract and vaguely defined notions on the basis that they're abstract and vaguely defined.

  7. #157
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    I don't even know what we disagree on anymore.

    Rejecting belief in specific gods is not wrong via the probability route but rejecting belief in "creator of the universe" is wrong. It is using a probability analysis where the analysis should recognize it doesn't have enough data to give a reasonable answer.

    So, I think you're giving atheism more credit than it deserves. You don't have to be an atheist to reject all religious gods.
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 31-05-2018 at 10:02 PM.
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  8. #158
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    I don't even know what we disagree on anymore.

    Rejecting belief in specific gods is not wrong via the probability route but rejecting belief in "creator of the universe" is wrong. It is using a probability analysis where the analysis should recognize it doesn't have enough data to give an answer.

    So, I think you're giving atheism more credit than it deserves. You don't have to be an atheist to reject all religious gods.
    Why are you so focused on probability? This is a question of belief. This also does not even necessarily have to do with religious gods. It's gods in general. So your last sentence is also a conflation of separate ideas. Someone who rejects religious gods but still believes that gods exist is not an atheist, they are irreligious but they are a theist.

    It's simple: Do you accept the belief that at least one god exist? Or do you reject the belief that at least one god exists? Or do you not know whether you accept or reject that belief?

  9. #159
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    How can I reject? I don't have nearly enough information to reject. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know seems the only reasonable answer.

    Obviously if someone comes up and defines God in a particular way, it becomes much easier to reject it. That's why I'm focused on probability. It helps you understand your own instinctual thinking.

    Of course I am inclined to reject in my gut but then I ask how can I do that and I don't have an answer. You can form opinions in many situations without enough info if you don't know you don't have enough info. That is not the case here.

    So, coming down to it, how do you have an answer?
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 31-05-2018 at 10:17 PM.
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    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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  11. #161
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    How can I reject? I don't have nearly enough information to reject. ?
    By rejecting the belief.
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  12. #162
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    By rejecting the belief.
    So it's a way of saying "the belief in existence of god is wrong" while at the same time saying "I can't say god doesn't exist".

    So that way, atheism is literally dependent on theists' existence. Cool.

  13. #163
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Dude I literally supplied you with a broad range of definitions of the word from bloody wikipedia, of all places.

    I am an atheist, I am a proponent of atheism. Do you expect me to sit here and accept your idea that zealotry is a feature of atheism when it is clearly not the way I behave? It is offensive and stupid. I don't even think zealotry is necessarily feature of religion, and yet here you are expecting me to accept this as a feature of my life choices.

    Again, your failure to understand a word doesn't give you the right to call atheism a belief system and paint it with whatever brush you choose to.
    No, I think your definition is not in line with the reality of how the word is used, nor the belief/positions of the people that follow it. If you want to be obtuse about that point you're welcome to continue doing so. If you want to think I "don't understand" your definition there's also not much I can do about it.

    I actually wouldn't have pegged you as the kind of zealot I was describing, but its worth highlighting that this whole line of conversation started by someone saying that monotheism is stupid and dangerous. No nuance, no differentiating between the belief of an individual and the corrosive nature of any ideology, just belief in a single god is stupid and dangerous. That's zealotry and frankly it's far from the worst example you'll see of it.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    This is what I was getting at a couple of pages back.



    You're not an atheist if you "don't know", you're an agnostic.
    Nah, agnosticism is kinda off on its own axis with respect to atheism/theism. Agnosticism speaks to the degree of certainty we have in a belief. All atheists are agnostic to some degree (even if it's to a trivial extent). Like, I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't really believe in god, but I accept that I can't know that for certain. Ausage would probably fall within this category, though his degree of agnosticism about his atheism is obviously far greater than mine or hendrix's. By comparison, an agnostic Christian would be someone who believes in god and that Jesus existed and that heaven probably exists, but doesn't accept many of the precepts of the Bible with any degree of certainty (e.g. the divinity of Christ).
    Last edited by Bahnz; 31-05-2018 at 11:27 PM.
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  15. #165
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Nah, agnosticism is kinda off on its own axis with respect to atheism/theism. Agnosticism speaks to the degree of certainty we have in a belief. All atheists are agnostic to some degree (even if it's to a trivial extent). Like, I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't really believe in god, but I accept that I can't know that for certain. Ausage would probably fall within this category, though his degree of agnosticism about his atheism is obviously far greater than mine or hendrix's.
    Yeah I got that's what hendrix was trying to say as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    So it's a way of saying "the belief in existence of god is wrong" while at the same time saying "I can't say god doesn't exist".

    So that way, atheism is literally dependent on theists' existence. Cool.
    So, what I gather more or less from you and hendrix is that you think of atheism = agnosticism + arguing theism-is/theists-are wrong in its/their belief

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