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Thread: Socialism and also ethics discussion thread

  1. #61
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    You're not being honest by saying Social Democracy "leads to a Nazi or Communist state" ffs. Clear your head. Taking it to the extreme even when he's specified the context.
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 20-11-2017 at 02:15 AM.
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  2. #62
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    You're not being honest if you think Social Democracy "leads to a Nazi or Communist state" ffs. Clear your head. Taking it to the extreme even when he's specified the context.
    Ironically, we were talking about Chile in the economics thread. It was a social democracy that was voting in a Marxist leader. A social democracy can do whatever it wants; it's just using the power of the majority to achieve it; there is no distinctive aim there. If anything, they're more likely to lead to those things because it engages populist notions.
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  3. #63
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    There are 0 recorded examples of social democracies turning into communist or fascist dictatorships through anything other than violent seizure of power.
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  4. #64
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    What you said was you were giving honest feedback. "What you think leads to a Nazi or communist state" is not an honest feedback to give to somebody who says they support Social Democracy.
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  5. #65
    Evil Scotsman Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Well, at least you're honest about your selfish goals - a lot of people won't admit that they want free college or health care for themselves because they argue from a point of view where it is better for all. That disingenuous starting point becomes the basis of all their flawed arguments.




    With all due respect, it just sounds like you are creating an excuse for yourself. Your political activity might be minimal if non existent but your beliefs are certainly reflective of your identity.

    I was actually thinking you were intellectually honest but morally corrupt but you're both TBH. This is the kind of thinking that leads to a Nazi or Communist state - and that's not an exaggeration. The ills of the world don't happen overnight but one sin at a time.



    You reap the fruits of people who have fought and died for your right to live a relatively peaceful life but you don't have due appreciation for it. Some people think evil is a myth, miles away. As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote: "the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being."
    And you wonder why no-one takes you seriously.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    There are 0 recorded examples of social democracies turning into communist or fascist dictatorships through anything other than violent seizure of power.
    The violent seizure of power prevented them from turning into even fascister dictatorships #ikkinomics

  7. #67
    International Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    What was Germany before WWII out of general interest? It was via the voting booth that Hitler was elected chancellor

  8. #68
    Cricketer Of The Year Gnske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    You're not being honest by saying Social Democracy "leads to a Nazi or Communist state" ffs. Clear your head. Taking it to the extreme even when he's specified the context.
    Can you not be rude and call someone a liar? I'd infract you for that.

  9. #69
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbacks View Post
    What was Germany before WWII out of general interest? It was via the voting booth that Hitler was elected chancellor
    A complete mess.

  10. #70
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    What you said was you were giving honest feedback. "What you think leads to a Nazi or communist state" is not an honest feedback to give to somebody who says they support Social Democracy.
    I wasn't referring to his belief in social democracy but his viewpoint and consistency of beliefs. It's people who don't think they're doing harmful acts, while doing harmful acts, that bring about terrible things like Nazis and Communism.

    The people that allowed such things to overtake their countrymen, whether by coercion or the ballot box, were responsible with going along with what was clearly not okay.

    Ironically they thought they were doing good things or benign things at worst.
    Last edited by Ikki; 20-11-2017 at 05:15 AM.
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  11. #71
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I wasn't referring to his belief in social democracy but his viewpoint and consistency of beliefs. It's people who don't think they're doing harmful acts, while doing harmful acts, that bring about terrible things like Nazis and Communism.

    The people that allowed such things to overtake their countrymen, whether by coercion or the ballot box, were responsible with going along with what was clearly not okay.

    Ironically they thought they were doing good things or benign things at worst.
    Again, he specifically said he wouldn't go along with movement towards Fascism. He said he's comfortable with not moving towards libertarianism from social democracy. That doesn't mean he's game towards the other side.

    And the part in bold is so general as to apply to everybody, including you.
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  12. #72
    Evil Scotsman Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbacks View Post
    What was Germany before WWII out of general interest? It was via the voting booth that Hitler was elected chancellor
    If by 'voting booth' you mean 'appointed by presidential decree' then sure.

  13. #73
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    That's like saying you'll assault someone regularly but never kill them. He doesn't want a total fascist state, just a slight one (that is incrementally getting bigger) and won't sell out for $5m a year, but doing the job he already does.

    I notice he's trying to create a conversation but if he is being honest about everything then I feel he should receive honesty back.
    This argument doesn't even make sense if you believe that social democracy is a fascism-lite.

    It only makes sense if you believe that I believe that social democracy is fascism-lite

    Which I don't - so the premise of the argument is fundamentally flawed even if you made it in good faith.

    The fascism example I gave was meant to highlight that I obviously do have moral first principles on some political level. I did not in any way imply that i believe that social democracy is fascism-lite and I'm okay with tolerating fascism-lite. It's totally fine for you to believe that concept. However, It's just pre-moral stupidity to presume the same for me as well and build a castle in the air about how I believe social democracy is fascist yet i support it, what an eveil, eveil man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    It's people who don't think they're doing harmful acts, while doing harmful acts, that bring about terrible things like Nazis and Communism.
    Ikki, you keep talking about people doing harmful things, sins etc. My hopeful musings about the future of social democracy on an internet forum is intellectual masturbation with zero material impact on anyone. It would make zero impact even if I had the opposite views and was a card-carrying libertarian. The only economically/socially significant thing I do in my life, is helping businesses pay as little tax as possible. How in the actual **** are my actual actions contributing to Nazism.
    Last edited by Teja.; 20-11-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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  14. #74
    Cricketer Of The Year StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    The only economically/socially significant thing I do in my life, is helping businesses pay as little tax as possible. How in the actual **** are my actual actions contributing to Nazism.
    "It is what it is not..."

  15. #75
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    How in the actual **** are my actual actions contributing to Nazism.
    When the inevitable reply comes, and you read it, and want to grind your head against a chicken wire fence, I want you to remember this post, and remember me telling you that you did this to yourself.

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