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Thread: Socialism and also ethics discussion thread

  1. #31
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Yeah, actual libertarian socialism is... distinctive. I suspect I'm the closest one to it (other than you ) and I'm not particularly close.

    At first blush you could easily mistake it for a form of ancap, but its view of property rights, ownership, and value-creation is, well, Marxist, in the orthodox sense.
    Yeah Carson himself is particularly interesting -- on the surface, in principle, he only seems to fundamentally disagree with ancaps on two things, one of which is semantic:
    1. The proper definition of "capitalism"
    2. The implications on property rights of absentee ownership

    He does however think these 'ancap' principles would inevitably result in sort of Marxist-idealist outcomes, and that the theory of marginal utility is compatible with labour theory of value as a sort of branch of it, rather than necessarily a separate, competing theory of value.. and these are major deviations from what ancaps think about their own ideas, even if not really deviations of core principle.

    https://c4ss.org/content/12561

    I don't agree with him all the time and I think he relies on what amount to linguist tricks and false conflations to make some of his arguments, but I could say that about a bunch of small-government libertarian capitalists as well really.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 17-11-2017 at 08:49 PM.
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  2. #32
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Yeah. I definitely don't agree with him all the time, but I find arguments from that sector always worth reading and digesting. But it's incomprehensible if you don't at least have a basic understanding of orthodox Marxist theory of political economy. It'd be like trying to critique an article written in French without knowing how French verbs work.
    Last edited by Spark; 17-11-2017 at 09:15 PM.
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  3. #33
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    I don't know who Kevin Carson is but I think I idealogically align with him and find myself agreeing with what little I've read of him in the past 15 mins.

    I also find myself quite aligned with that c4ss thing.
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  4. #34
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I don't know who Kevin Carson is but I think I idealogically align with him and find myself agreeing with what little I've read of him in the past 15 mins.

    I also find myself quite aligned with that c4ss thing.
    Haha you know I've actually thought this might be the case when reading some of your more recent posts. You seem very much grounded in consequentialism rather than rights-based thinking which is where you might depart from him slightly at times, but in a general sense I think you'd fit in with that pretty well, at least in an "I'm ideologically aligned with this school of thought but I don't think ideology should rule all" kind of way.


  5. #35
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Haha you know I've actually thought this might be the case when reading some of your more recent posts. You seem very much grounded in consequentialism rather than rights-based thinking which is where you might depart from him slightly at times, but in a general sense I think you'd fit in with that pretty well, at least in an "I'm ideologically aligned with this school of thought but I don't think ideology should rule all" kind of way.
    Yeah tbh I'd never heard of any of these people and don't actively seek them out.

    My thinking has been driven by my interest in refugee welfare and politics, and critical analysis thereof, as well as my retraining towards a career in the healthcare industry. Regarding the latter a huge amount of the qualitative literature is built upon assumptions of social theory that to me are fundamentally flawed, and I find myself consistently rebelling against ideas promoted from the research consensus, legislation and position statements from various health related agencies, based on both ideology and simple practicality; the fundamental flaws are to such a degree that even in the researchers perfect (in some cases Marxist) utopia the suggestions simply can't work because they're not based in reality.

    It's what's drawn me towards looking for nihilism tbh - I have a near complete rejection of what I'm reading. It's somewhat disconcerting.
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  6. #36
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I knew you would respond seriously

    Well aware of it existing. In fact the socialist caucus in the USLP is fairly prominent.

  7. #37
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shri View Post
    Socialism without capitalism will turn into communism. Capitalism without socialism will turn into fascism.
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  9. #39
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Shri's Avatar
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    Yeah none of you ****s are like world leaders here, dicks.

  10. #40
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    i really want to learn about libertarian socialism now because it sounds made up yet if real, interesting
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  11. #41
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    i really want to learn about libertarian socialism now because it sounds made up yet if real, interesting
    Read some Rosa Luxemberg for starters.
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  12. #42
    Evil Scotsman Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Yeah it's a thing but I think it's vastly 'overdiagnosed' by quizzes.. and even self-identifying members really (possibly due to the quizzes, actually..). Furball's politically closer to watson than he is to Kevin Carson, and that's not to say he's close to watson.
    I don't have the quiz link to hand but the questions were quite similar to the political compass questions.

    I think my result is explained by the contradiction of my stance on social policy, where I'm very liberal, and economic policy where I tend to favour a degree of state intervention as a protection against the excesses of capitalism.
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  13. #43
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    my political beliefs are very similar to that these days.


    I'm definitely a capitalist, but with significant state oversight to ensure a competitive market and protection of labor.
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  14. #44
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    That's just mainstream social democracy tbh.

    Libertarian socialism/Marxism would probably be better described as market anarchism or radical-left ancap.
    Last edited by Spark; 18-11-2017 at 07:28 AM.

  15. #45
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Playing devil's advocate, I think I've resigned to the fact that in my heart of hearts I will always be a big supporter of big government social democracy for selfish reasons even though ethically i have some libertarian leanings which is reflected when i take 'objective' political compass tests.

    The fact of the matter is that the only sort of work that I can tolerate and enjoy doing 50+ hours a week is as a 'priest' who interprets some sort of code/law to people who would otherwise find it inscrutable. The reason for the inscrutableness is that trying to draft a universal code of rules which is applicable to millions of people is in itself a failed endeavour to begin with, leading to massive areas of gray and thousands of types of situations which are not addressed at all. This creates an interesting power dynamic wherein lawyers (specifically advisory consultants) who would otherwise be customer-facing facilitators in a small government society are given this awesome (unfair) power to use the religion of laws (especially tax laws) in a way that the power dynamics are inverted and we can be interpretation-facing nerds and customers are relying on us even for a basic understanding of the code and not just for representation and advice in highly disputable areas.

    In a libertarian society, even though there'd be internal regulations for closed societies etc. which would lead to work for lawyers, codes which are specifically written for small societies tend to be better in coverage as they would address specific eventualities that would arise within those societies and would also focus more on members of the societies being able to understand them, which is great for society. However, the majority of work would be in representation, facilitation and deal making between parties and compliance which are really meh areas to work in, personally.

    Being brutally honest, I would be a hypocrite if i supported small government ideals when the only reason I have a reasonably well-paying law firm job with sharp upward mobility when i can sit around and debate with people all day about whether the words 'in order to' in a sentence should be read to include all conditions precedent or just the specific act being referred, is because of big government creating a one size fits all tax code for a billion people. A lot of the alternate jobs i would want to do as a lawyer are also solving problems created by big government. I fully understand that the above is just a personal pragmatic position and I'm not saying it is a reason that big government should exist just that it has worked out favourably for me personally.

    The TLDR is that most jobs I would enjoy are variations of putting out fires created by big government. The reason for that is not because I have some moral agenda against big government but because I enjoy playing fireman to the specific types of fires that big government brings. Accordingly, flamethrower big government surviving is important for me.
    Last edited by Teja.; 18-11-2017 at 01:08 PM.
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