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Thread: Socialism and also ethics discussion thread

  1. #151
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    My main issue with Socialism is you can't buy things with rights
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  2. #152
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    My main issue is that it has a very hard time figuring out what the value of things should be.
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  3. #153
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    My main issue is that it has a very hard time figuring out what the value of things should be.
    Problem of course being that it has a notion of what "should be" when it comes to value of things.

  4. #154
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Value lies where people believe it lies.


  5. #155
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    My main issue is that it has a very hard time figuring out what the value of things should be.
    I don't think determining the value of things is that difficult....

    ...the problem is that when something is highly valued due to its importance in survival and everyday life, how do you ensure it does not become unattainable. Abundance obviously helps, but some things are just limited and thus how do you ensure that everybody has an equal opportunity at those most important of resources. Obvious examples are water, or maybe health care, schooling... but you can go beyond that and look at something like the internet nowadays; is it a necessity? No, not like you would initially think, but in the modern western world how much more difficult life is made compared to others if you don't have access when searching for jobs as an example, so at what point does it become a required part of modern society?

    Sometimes free markets help, and for most goods it is all that is required to determine value, but sometimes intervention is needed to ensure that certain items do not become unattainable. Striking that balance is the difficulty thing for me.
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  6. #156
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    I agree you don't need socialism for industrial democracy. It can happen under many different structures and arrangements. The point was aimed at Sledger who claimed all socialist ideals, if pursued seriously, are anti-thetical or obstructive to reigning in state control and influence. And that's just demonstrably false imo, as he's more or less implicitly conceded in the ensuing posts.

    And sure you can have syndicalism, worker co-operatives etc. under capitalism. But it still belongs to the socialist ethos, historically promulgated by the lower classes against the wealthy and powerful.
    Not really. Theoretically sure, but in reality, close to nil chance I should imagine.

  7. #157
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    I agree you don't need socialism for industrial democracy. It can happen under many different structures and arrangements. The point was aimed at Sledger who claimed all socialist ideals, if pursued seriously, are anti-thetical or obstructive to reigning in state control and influence. And that's just demonstrably false imo, as he's more or less implicitly conceded in the ensuing posts.

    And sure you can have syndicalism, worker co-operatives etc. under capitalism. But it still belongs to the socialist ethos, historically promulgated by the lower classes against the wealthy and powerful.
    Very contentious.

  8. #158
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow View Post
    My main issue with socialism is that it often takes away the individual rights of the workers rather than protects them.

    Doctors, nurses, teachers, soldiers etc have their ability to sell their skills on free market limited.
    If you substitute the word "often" and replace it with "always" and/or "inevitably" I completely agree.

  9. #159
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    My main issue with Socialism is you can't buy things with rights
    You (basically) can if said rights are property rights.

  10. #160
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Value lies where people believe it lies.
    Usually the lowest price at whatever cost.
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  11. #161
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Well maybe, but value is an entirely subject notion. Art for instance, or wine. These things have value because some bod who is supposedly an expert on such things says they do.

  12. #162
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    as irritating as unions are, workers in a field where the union is weak or not present definitely notice the difference in pay and treatment. if a company has a monopoly and no union to contend with, they always crush their workers and their customers because that is human nature. it is the reason why the ideological purity of ikki would be responsible for the ruin of millions of people if it was implemented tomorrow.

    on the flip side, not having a union to hide behind sure does increase your workplace survival skills and competitiveness between good employees. the crap ones just moan like they would with a union.

    the greatest thing for the treatment of any employee though imo is he or she works in a competitive market for their labour. it is a beautiful thing to watch a monopoly stack its dacks at the sight of a genuine competitor muscling in. i think the greatest danger to a worker is not over-regulation or a lack of representation but being taken for granted and having few options to pursue in response.

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  13. #163
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Yeah, the idea of a union is fine. Problem is they just turn into platforms for insidious idiots (usually champagne socialists) to pursue their own personal agenda against "the man" at the expense of everyone else. For whatever good they do, they are honestly some of most hypocritical and intellectually dishonest organisations in existence.
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  14. #164
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, the idea of a union is fine. Problem is they just turn into platforms for insidious idiots (usually champagne socialists) to pursue their own personal agenda against "the man" at the expense of everyone else. For whatever good they do, they are honestly some of most hypocritical and intellectually dishonest organisations in existence.
    They're like defence lawyers. Their role is to represent a particular group as best they can. In the process they might often be hypocritical, intellectually dishonest, or otherwise ethically suspect. They might not personally be nice people (just look at Burgey). But it's better that they exist, because they stand in the way of serious abuse of power.
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  15. #165
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Yeah tbh, my own biggest problem with unions is when they are ineffectual. I mean, you can argue about how effective they can be in workforces where union membership is low, blatant corruption and so forth. But, traditionally, police tend to be heavily unionised (>90%) so you can accept the idiots and wannabe pollies if they use that sort of muscle well. But whilst generally good at protecting overtime penalties and incremental pay rises, they're often **** at protecting those with serious/long-term/disabling on-the-job injuries, bullying and pensions. Y'know, the stuff that matters.

    I dunno, they're necessary as a general check on power but it's tough to keep the faith otherwise.

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