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Thread: The reason the alt-right exists...

  1. #61
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Why is there an argument about if a pre-modern civilisation was racist? Wtf
    rome wasn't a socialist utopia (except there was a surprising amount of socialism going on) and has retrospectively been accurately labelled the roman empire, therefore we need to look to the words of the immortal Ser Friendzone

    "it's tempting to see your enemies as evil, when really there has been good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought"
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  2. #62
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Stop calling them Alt Left. They're the Ctrl Left. Trumps really gone downhill with typecasting his political opponents since the primaries.
    so should we Ctrl Alt Delete or is that too dangerous?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Stop calling them Alt Left. They're the Ctrl Left. Trumps really gone downhill with typecasting his political opponents since the primaries.

    OK, so we have to be careful how we label individuals or groups of people.

    So here's Godwin himself talking about stereotyping and the abuse of the term Nazi which has surely reached derka-derka-derka status by now.


    Sure, call Trump a Nazi. Just make sure you know what you’re talking about.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.33aea8c55631

    I would also say that the terms Racist, Fascist, Stalinist and Communist have also reached derka-derka-derka status. Especially Racist which is completely out-of-control.

    Then there is the mis-use of the word evil which really bugs me. In reality only clinically proven Socio-paths can be classified as evil. And even then their pathology is ultimately due to a genetic disorder.

    I don't even see most suicide-bombers and assorted terrorists as being evil because in a fair and equitable world where we all mind our own business and leave each other alone they simply wouldn't exist. No one wakes up in the morning, cooks breakfast and then suddenly out-the-blue thinks to themself, "today I'd really like to blow-up a bunch of people up so their guts and brains fly everywhere".
    Last edited by watson; 27-08-2017 at 06:41 PM.

  4. #64
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    That's an unsettlingly earnest response Watson.
    I'd have thought the reason they should be called the ctrl left required a one liner at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    so should we Ctrl Alt Delete or is that too dangerous?
    I'm not sure anyone benefits from a hard reset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Then there is the mis-use of the word evil which really bugs me. In reality only clinically proven Socio-paths can be classified as evil.
    Nope. The truth is actually opposite to this. Evil people are perfectly sane people who do horrible things, usually for their own benefit.
    Last edited by hendrix; 27-08-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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    Perhaps watson meant irredeemably evil?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Perhaps watson meant irredeemably evil?
    Just highlighting the fact that all human behaviour is contingent. That is, dependent on a prior set of circumstances that are effectively out of control of the individual.

    So if the Duke hadn't been assassinated, millions of young men hadn't been traumatised while fighting in the trenches during WW1, and the American banks hadn't pulled billions of dollars out of the German financial system in 1930 thus collapsing the Mark, then we'd probably be discussing the merits of Hitler's water colours rather his politics and pogroms.

    And so the problem is really about the systems and ideologies that give way to 'evil' people, not the 'evil' people themselves.

    That said, the crisis currently gripping Western societies has everything to do with the failure of NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy - not the people of the Alt Right/Crl Left/Alt Left who are merely 'canaries in the mine' as it were.
    Last edited by watson; 28-08-2017 at 12:29 AM.

  8. #68
    Not Terrible Athlai's Avatar
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    Fair enough though I disagree on current assessment of where failure lies.

  9. #69
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Just highlighting the fact that all human behaviour is contingent. That is, dependent on a prior set of circumstances that are effectively out of control of the individual.

    So if the Duke hadn't been assassinated, millions of young men hadn't been traumatised while fighting in the trenches during WW1, and the American banks hadn't pulled billions of dollars out of the German financial system in 1930 thus collapsing the Mark, then we'd probably be discussing the merits of Hitler's water colours rather his politics and pogroms.

    And so the problem is really about the systems and ideologies that give way to 'evil' people, not the 'evil' people themselves.

    That said, the crisis currently gripping Western societies has everything to do with the failure of NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy - not the people of the Alt Right/Crl Left/Alt Left who are merely 'canaries in the mine' as it were.
    Nope. I'm not having this moral relatavistic bullshit. People are responsible for their actions. Sure, there are extenuating circumstances and you don't want to be judging a man stealing bread to feed his family, but this is nothing like that at all. You can for sure say that various cold wars over the past 150 years has de-stabilised Afghanistan, and a couple of different cold wars over the past 50 years have destabilised the Middle East, and Africa is a complete **** show. And even then, I'm still going to hold people responsible for their actions. I'm still going to hold terrorists accountable for their terrorism.

    But those things don't even apply to most of the "Western societies" whence all these morons arose. These people have first world problems, not third world problems. These people have education, food, and relatively just legal systems. These people choose relatively freely what they think and what they do.

    Stop taking the responsibility away from people for their actions. Stop blaming phenomena such as economics for pathetic fear and hate mongering amongst despicable people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Fair enough though I disagree on current assessment of where failure lies.
    It's not "fair enough". It's an insidious and disgusting attempt to subvert blame away from perpetrators.

    "NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy" -This is his championing of closed off societies, singular culture, and complete non-intervention when horrible **** happens i.e. exactly what these alt-righters and lefters are calling for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    It's not "fair enough". It's an insidious and disgusting attempt to subvert blame away from perpetrators.

    "NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy" -This is his championing of closed off societies, singular culture, and complete non-intervention when horrible **** happens i.e. exactly what these alt-righters and lefters are calling for.
    Fair enough to platitudes and I pretty much just let my eyes roll back into my head for the last paragraph he had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    It's not "fair enough". It's an insidious and disgusting attempt to subvert blame away from perpetrators.

    "NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy" -This is his championing of closed off societies, singular culture, and complete non-intervention when horrible **** happens i.e. exactly what these alt-righters and lefters are calling for.

    If you want to disempower Governments and undermine the Democratic process by handing over the nation's essential services, infrastructure and economic 'levers' to self-serving Multinationals and Bankers who don't give a **** then be a NeoLiberal.

    If you want to ruin the Earth's climate and obliterate the Great Barrier Reef by getting China to consume more coal than the rest of the World put together for an entire generation then be a NeoLiberal.

    If you want to disconnect people from their social history and devalue and demean all individual cultures in the feckless pursuit of a Global Monoculture then be a Liberal.

    If you want to kill 100s of 1000s of people while wasting trillions of dollars then be a Neocon.

    If you want to turn Libya into a failed state and thereby open up the Mediterranean to international people smugglers while at the same enabling the rise of European Fascism then also be a NeoCon.

    And so on.......


    As I said before - there are causes and then there are symptoms. Look after the causes and the symptoms naturally go away.
    Last edited by watson; 28-08-2017 at 08:19 AM.

  13. #73
    U19 Cricketer Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Just highlighting the fact that all human behaviour is contingent. That is, dependent on a prior set of circumstances that are effectively out of control of the individual.

    So if the Duke hadn't been assassinated, millions of young men hadn't been traumatised while fighting in the trenches during WW1, and the American banks hadn't pulled billions of dollars out of the German financial system in 1930 thus collapsing the Mark, then we'd probably be discussing the merits of Hitler's water colours rather his politics and pogroms.

    And so the problem is really about the systems and ideologies that give way to 'evil' people, not the 'evil' people themselves.


    That said, the crisis currently gripping Western societies has everything to do with the failure of NeoLiberal Economics, (Neo)Liberal Social Policy and NeoCon Foreign Policy - not the people of the Alt Right/Crl Left/Alt Left who are merely 'canaries in the mine' as it were.
    Nah this is off, imo.

    The latter does not follow from the former. It's far too deterministic. What about personal integrity and responsibility? The treaty of Versailles does not absolve Hitler one iota of his crimes. The devolution of Germany from a cultural epicenter to the absolute pits of human history have, but are certainly not limited to, everything to do with that well known individual born in Braunau am Inn.
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    damn, no point placing the guy on ignore if people end up quoting the poisonous filth he spews anyway...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    Nah this is off, imo.

    The latter does not follow from the former. It's far too deterministic. What about personal integrity and responsibility? The treaty of Versailles does not absolve Hitler one iota of his crimes. The devolution of Germany from a cultural epicenter to the absolute pits of human history have, but are certainly not limited to, everything to do with that well known individual born in Braunau am Inn.
    WW2 wasn't an unstoppable series of events either; it was deliberately engineered. Hitler really, really, really wanted a war and was furious when he didn't get one after Munich.
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