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Thread: The reason the alt-right exists...

  1. #31
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Calling Nazi-era German big corporations "private" is stretching the term tbh. For all intents and purposes they were arms of the government and of the Nazi Party specifically - certainly the Nazi Party made sure the people running the corporations were loyal or replaced with people who were.

    Ford and IBM are probably better examples of genuinely private corporations who made a lot of money doing businesses with Nazis and happily turned a blind eye to the moral character of their actions.
    Last edited by Spark; 26-08-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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  2. #32
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Calling Nazi-era German big corporations "private" is stretching the term tbh. For all intents and purposes they were arms of the government and of the Nazi Party specifically - certainly the Nazi Party made sure the people running the corporations were loyal or replaced with people who were.

    Ford and IBM are probably better examples of genuinely private corporations who made a lot of money doing businesses with Nazis and happily turned a blind eye to the moral character of their actions.
    Fair enough, it is stretching, but in the end they also weren't really government run so that is also stretching, it's a grey area, but in the end, my point still stands, the hatred of the idealogy is not really about whether it was run by the government or not.

    It's trying to fit it into Randian logic that is always annoying, and so many are obsessive about.
    Last edited by grecian; 26-08-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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  3. #33
    International Captain andruid's Avatar
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    Does any of this make Ayn Rand despicable? Asking for an enemy.
    Last edited by andruid; 26-08-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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  4. #34
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andruid View Post
    Does any of this make An Rand despicable? Asking for an enemy.
    I think everything about everything makes her despicable, and thank gawd no country, except maybe one, has taken her views fully on board, or else it would clearly make Marx seem like a little fluffy poodle, which is how I view him anyway, obviously......


  5. #35
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andruid View Post
    Does any of this make Ayn Rand despicable? Asking for an enemy.
    Yes

  6. #36
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    In the end it's politicians innit, they distort even good things for their own purposes, and that purpose is division.

    In the end the problem with everything is the old adage that the first thing that should preclude a politician from getting into politics is wanting to be a politician. It's all about being power mad and ruthless whether you be Le Pen or Sanders.

    Someone made a point recently how the German right only rebranded themselves as socialists in the 30s to pick up votes, can't say I care that much, there certainly where socialist ideals within Nazism, but ya know Krupp, Hugo Boss, Mercedes, many of the camps providing labor for private business, **** it even Zyklon B was developed by a private company.

    In the end the evil of the system was in hating others for how they were born, borne from a feeling of superiority about their own origins, so just like the alt-right, or Romans, British or any empire that ever existed, how it was implemented is slightly irrelevant.

    I was quite depressed before making that post, quite happy now, proves football is more important than politics really.
    woah woah woah, Rome was many things, but it was not racist. they did not hate people for where or who they were born as. quite the opposite. In a world where most viewed those beyond their village as their enemy, Rome's inclusiveness (Spanish and Illyrians even became Emperors) was light years ahead of its time. They were also as close as the ancient world gets to socialist with the free grain allotments for the poor, mass public infrastructure projects and state funded pensions for civil and military service. That's more socialist than modern America ffs.

    They were undeniably militaristic, but the #1 priority for any ancient society was the army otherwise it wouldn't be around very long. They went to war first for self defense against much bigger enemies, then to secure trade lanes against hostile North African states and Balkan pirates, once to shake off the mental hoodoo over big bad Gauls sacking Rome, and thereafter it got out of hand because the cults of personality demanded conquest. They also had to counter a lot of antagonism from German raiders and Parthian/Sassanid rulers when they weren't squabbling amongst themselves over who gets to be Augustus.

    When Caesar conquered Gaul, some of his biggest critics were Roman. Specifically the "mate that's pretty much genocide" part. Rome would have found Nazi Germany appalling given the Nazis went against almost every ethos (outside of military discipline) that made Rome strong.

    And yes I pretty much have been classical world binging lately which is why I won't shut up about it.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 26-08-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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  7. #37
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    woah woah woah, Rome was many things, but it was not racist. they did not hate people for where or who they were born as. quite the opposite. In a world where most viewed those beyond their village as their enemy, Rome's inclusiveness (Spanish and Illyrians even became Emperors) was light years ahead of its time. They were also as close as the ancient world gets to socialist with the free grain allotments for the poor, mass public infrastructure projects and state funded pensions for civil and military service. That's more socialist than modern America ffs.

    They were undeniably militaristic, but the #1 priority for any ancient society was the army otherwise it wouldn't be around very long. They went to war first for self defense against much bigger enemies, then to secure trade lanes against hostile North African states and Balkan pirates, once to shake off the mental hoodoo over big bad Gauls sacking Rome, and thereafter it got out of hand because the cults of personality demanded conquest. They also had to counter a lot of antagonism from German raiders and Parthian/Sassanid rulers when they weren't squabbling amongst themselves over who gets to be Augustus.

    When Caesar conquered Gaul, some of his biggest critics were Roman. Specifically the "mate that's pretty much genocide" part. Rome would have found Nazi Germany appalling given the Nazis went against almost every ethos (outside of military discipline) that made Rome strong.

    And yes I pretty much have been classical world binging lately which is why I won't shut up about it.
    Sorry you have admitted that Julius comitted genocide, your comeback is some people argued about it in senate, then Rome built itself in Julius' image after assasination.

    Oh and Carthage remember that, nah pobably not because of what the Romans did to the people and culture.

    They assimilated people in the end, but there was 100s of years before that.
    Last edited by grecian; 26-08-2017 at 03:18 PM.

  8. #38
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    Sorry you have admitted that Julius comitted genocide, your comeback is some people argued about it in senate, then Rome built itself in Julius' image after assasination,
    No it didn't. Octavian saw exactly where Caesar erred in many aspects, and adjusted accordingly since he didn't really want to get stabbed. Nothing of that kind ever happened again that I can think of until near the fall of the Western Empire. That's centuries, in which case by your logic I may as well judge you for the crimes of the British Empire.

    Rome succeeded and almost never suffered from nationalist rebellions because they very, very, very rarely let the soldiers off the leash in victory (much, much, much less than any other state or tribe of the time) and when they did it was not usually viewed favourably. Rome separated itself from most of the ancient world by being pretty damn gentle in victory.

    I'm always kind of surprised Caesar committed that atrocity given how out of character it was.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 26-08-2017 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #39
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    Fair enough, it is stretching, but in the end they also weren't really government run so that is also stretching, it's a grey area, but in the end, my point still stands, the hatred of the idealogy is not really about whether it was run by the government or not.

    It's trying to fit it into Randian logic that is always annoying, and so many are obsessive about.
    Well of course it's about the government. Nazism only thrived because of the power they wielded. These things don't exist in a vacuum.

    Hate will always exist. When hate gets power it becomes more dangerous, trying to separate that hate from the other authoritarian elements seems counter intuitive to me.

    'We need to eliminate Jews and once we do we can have free healthcare and great roads'

    No not an exact quote. The population weren't merely duped by anti semitism though.
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  10. #40
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    No it didn't. Octavian saw exactly where Caesar erred in many aspects, and adjusted accordingly since he didn't really want to get stabbed. Nothing of that kind ever happened again that I can think of until near the fall of the Western Empire. That's centuries, in which case by your logic I may as well judge you for the crimes of the British Empire.

    Rome succeeded and almost never suffered from nationalist rebellions because they very, very, very rarely let the soldiers off the leash in victory (much, much, much less than any other state or tribe of the time) and when they did it was not usually viewed favourably. Rome separated itself from most of the ancient world by being pretty damn gentle in victory.

    I'm always kind of surprised Caesar committed that atrocity given how out of character it was.
    I put British Empire in the post you objected too first, in the end they all have parts of history that are disgusting, and you can't ignore. Some are less bad than others, but conquering Other nations is never going to be a clean business.

  11. #41
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Well of course it's about the government. Nazism only thrived because of the power they wielded. These things don't exist in a vacuum.

    Hate will always exist. When hate gets power it becomes more dangerous, trying to separate that hate from the other authoritarian elements seems counter intuitive to me.

    'We need to eliminate Jews and once we do we can have free healthcare and great roads'

    No not an exact quote. The population weren't merely duped by anti semitism though.
    hilarious, you must be a real nice bloke in real life, so that people will defend you for equating free health-care with nazism, but yesh it's not a direct quote so fair enough.

    How about we can have free healthcare and not eliminate jews, because ya know the two things aren't remotely linked, and in practically every country it's happened very succesfully no-ones eliminated jews. How you remotely equate free healthcare with authoritarinism is amaing, and just what I state about Rand fans trying to squeeze anything bad into being government owned.

  12. #42
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    I didn't get that from GIMPs post at all Grecian. I think you need to go do something else for an hour mate.
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  13. #43
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    hilarious, you must be a real nice bloke in real life, so that people will defend you for equating free health-care with nazism, but yesh it's not a direct quote so fair enough.

    How about we can have free healthcare and not eliminate jews, because ya know the two things aren't remotely linked, and in practically every country it's happened very succesfully no-ones eliminated jews. How you remotely equate free healthcare with authoritarinism is amaing, and just what I state about Rand fans trying to squeeze anything bad into being government owned.
    Well you've misinterpreted what I've said somewhat, not for the first time mind. Nice one on the personal attack btw, I think I'm a fairly nice bloke in real life tbh, certainly not full of hate. But I guess in your world view only dyed in the wool leftists who want to mow down anyone who's ever voted Tory are nice guys, because that's how tolerance works.

    I mentioned roads too btw but you were too busy building a scarecrow

    My point wasn't that free healthcare leads to concentration camps, pretty tragic that I have to explain that but it is what it is.

    Hitler enticed people by telling them the Jews were evil, promised to look after them, to gain them new land. He mixed hate and socialist messages to do this, and to say only the hate matters is wide of the mark because without the promises of the socialist side the hate is less likely to deliver.

    Replace healthcare with anything you want and the point still stands.

    I mean Jesus ****ing Christ how you can even say I equated free healthcare and nazism is ****ing beyond me. We have 'free' healthcare here after all and I don't feel Nazism creeping in.

    Seriously, just hideous from you.

  14. #44
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Hitler enticed people by telling them the Jews were evil, promised to look after them, to gain them new land. He mixed hate and socialist messages to do this, and to say only the hate matters is wide of the mark because without the promises of the socialist side the hate is less likely to deliver.

    Replace healthcare with anything you want and the point still stands..
    I agree quite strongly with this, and it's actively happening around the world right now: see the likes of Winston Peters and other socialist-nationalist campaigners.
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  15. #45
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I agree quite strongly with this, and it's actively happening around the world right now: see the likes of Winston Peters and other socialist-nationalist campaigners.
    It's the most obvious way to drum up populist support isn't it?

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