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Thread: The reason the alt-right exists...

  1. #136
    U19 Cricketer Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Looking forward to the churches wasting plenty of their money on legal challenges, and on defending themselves from having to put pedos in their ranks (of which there are legion).

    Gillard has a great idea - if churches don’t implement the RC recommendations, they lose tax exempt status.
    They should all lose tax exemption and state subsidy, regardless. It's beyond absurd that they ever had and continue to have it.
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  2. #137
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    Considering most the churches in are 20-80 in size,and many can't afford to pay a pastor or priest,thats rather cruel.
    Take away the church or tax them,their will be no charities left.
    Where will that leave the country.
    Thats smart thinking MF.

  3. #138
    U19 Cricketer Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Yeah cause there arenít any secular charities in Australia, right? Pretty naive and arrogant thing to say.

    I donít care if theyíre insolvent. Thatís their problem.

  4. #139
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    I am sorry but religious charities make up the majority of servive providing over multiple areas,but probably 70%.
    Plus charity giving in churches to charities right round the world.
    You are certainly naive.
    As said the social welfare sector would crash if you did that.
    Who would suffer directly the poor and refugees.


  5. #140
    U19 Cricketer Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    If they want to do charity work, then fine. Let them. But that's not all they do. They use donations to acquire political power, to prosthelytise, to purchase land and property, to influence education, and a multitude of other things.

    You've already stated that charity would not exist without the churches; that is factually untrue and a morally reulsive thing to say.

  6. #141
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    If you want the poor and refugees to miss out,than thats a very sad case indeed.
    Secular charities are specialized and not accross the board.
    The christian charities are accross the board.
    Small churches which is 80 % can't afford pastors,how will they afford tax.
    Unting church pay their ministers below the minimum wage,believe you me knowing ppl working in the industry its not good now,let alone if theypay tax.
    Some churches may fold,they are folding as it is.

  7. #142
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    If they want to do charity work, then fine. Let them. But that's not all they do. They use donations to acquire political power, to prosthelytise, to purchase land and property, to influence education, and a multitude of other things.

    You've already stated that charity would not exist without the churches; that is factually untrue and a morally reulsive thing to say.
    Much of the bold applies to some charities too tbf. Would you argue for Greenpeace to lose their tax exempt/DGR status? I'd argue "influencing education" is done by the religious body politic more than it is specific churches too.
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  8. #143
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Much of the bold applies to some charities too tbf. Would you argue for Greenpeace to lose their tax exempt/DGR status? I'd argue "influencing education" is done by the religious body politic more than it is specific churches too.
    How would you argue this? Charities might influence what the body politic feels should be taught, but churches are literally providers of education. Can't really get more "influential" than that.
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  9. #144
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    Schools for Catholics run at a local level.
    They will have cuts now due 2 Government Gonski.
    The administration is done by the department.
    The Independent lobby influences non Anglican non Catholic schools.But think some works is done at a local level.

    It would be a facist move to tax general charities run by churches.
    As I said majority of charities church based,and the poor respond to them so the poor would be the 1's who suffer.
    For me megachurches should be tax as they are a business run by pastors and money CEO'S and have questionable practices.
    Hitting 80% of churches would be fatal.Imagine what would happen in country areas and cities areas as well.
    Last edited by brockley; 03-01-2018 at 08:23 PM.

  10. #145
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    How would you argue this? Charities might influence what the body politic feels should be taught, but churches are literally providers of education. Can't really get more "influential" than that.
    I took MF's comment to mean religious influence on broader/secular education. They obviously have absolute influence over what's taught at religious schools, but I don't see an issue with that. Religious education isn't branded as anything it's not (afaik).

  11. #146
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I took MF's comment to mean religious influence on broader/secular education. They obviously have absolute influence over what's taught at religious schools, but I don't see an issue with that. Religious education isn't branded as anything it's not (afaik).
    I don't disagree with the last part, but I still don't get how churches literally running a significant part of the education system doesn't count as a massive amount of influence on the system as a whole.

  12. #147
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I don't disagree with the last part, but I still don't get how churches literally running a significant part of the education system doesn't count as a massive amount of influence on the system as a whole.
    I'm not sure religious schools influence secular education (though I'd be interested in some reading), but even if that were the case, the popularity of religious schools is a downstream effect from the desires of it's members. As in, they're popular because a large amount of people want a religious education.

  13. #148
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I'm not sure religious schools influence secular education (though I'd be interested in some reading), but even if that were the case, the popularity of religious schools is a downstream effect from the desires of it's members. As in, they're popular because a large amount of people want a religious education.
    Well, sometimes. I think it's more common that people just feel the local Catholic school is just plain better, the religious aspect is very much secondary. There are a lot of people who aren't Catholic who send their kids to (local) Catholic schools, and of course the richer private schools often have a religious (Anglican) component to them too but I would be surprised if that had major bearing in the decision making of parents overall.

    But it's more because they have a significant stake in the system, so they get a pretty solid voice at the table when stuff like syllabuses, teaching standards and methods etc are discussed, as obviously in Australia that has to be consistent across the state.
    Last edited by Spark; 03-01-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  14. #149
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Not only should churches be exempt but so too should everybody else .

    And I don't get the education aspect as being a reason to take away their tax exemption. You are simply asking for everything to be a tool or puppet of the state. If people want to donate/pay to certain organisations to promote certain ideas then that is their prerogative. Promote the opposite if you disagree.

    As an aside, I've seen a lot of people **** on religious institutions (and often for legitimate reasons) but this shouldn't be confused with all people involved in them as a whole who do very noble and charitable things. People have an unwarranted respect for government doing the right thing yet the churches/mosques/etc are filled with people who actually are motivated to do the right thing and who don't get their funding through force. They help so many unfortunate people and it is a shame how much the respect to these institutions have swung the other way.
    Last edited by Ikki; 03-01-2018 at 08:46 PM.
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  15. #150
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    It can't be overstated just how destructive the child sexual abuse scandal has damaged the reputation of church in this country (I'm not gonna speak to America for now, because there's an entirely more complex discussion with respect to the evangelical right). Bloody hard to keep up your moral authority as an institution whose entire basis is having moral authority when you spend decades covering for people who rape kids. It is a shame at a local level, because I know first-hand that local churches do good work, have little to do with this stuff and actually do a good job of staying out of partisan political squabbles which is a nice change, as well as their vital role in providing a meeting-point and societal bridge for new migrant communities which are often quite religious.

    But their deeper record as institutions is pretty indefensible over the last 20, 50, 100, 200, 500 years. And the tone-deafness of people like the Archbishop of Melbourne who have decried, for decades, any sort of legal advances for gay people whilst muddying the waters at any turn on thousands upon thousands of kids being abused in their own house is pretty appalling.
    Last edited by Spark; 03-01-2018 at 08:53 PM.
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