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Thread: Should George Washington be wiped from History?

  1. #31
    Cricket Web Staff Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    well yeah because your **** generals had them killed
    They also go big on the various crimes of the Empire. I suppose someone has to, because it doesn't happen close to enough here.
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  2. #32
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend flibbertyjibber's Avatar
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    Na, good horse he was. Not the best from Ballydoyle but a good one.
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  3. #33
    International Regular S.Kennedy's Avatar
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    I just read a few books on World War One and I believe Australians focus far too much on Gallipoli. If you said the Australians (and Canadians) spearheaded the attack at Amiens which led to the Hundred Days Offensive during which the allies breached the Hindenburg line, gathered up thousands of German prisoners and guns and sent the rest scurrying back towards the Meuse, most people would go, ''ehh?'' But ''Gallipoli''! And ''Trench stalemate'' on the Western Front! Then again the Brits are obsessed with the Somme and Passchendaele in a similar way. It is as if we dwell on these battles - the French and Verdun also - which highlight the senseless futile waste of life in that war and ignore the genuine war winning finale, during which the allies used all their former mistakes to successfully break the stalemate of trench warfare. Haig and the rest of the British/Dominion generals actually come across fairly decent in the end if you read the military history.
    Last edited by S.Kennedy; 25-08-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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  4. #34
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Yeah I think Haig sort of takes the hit for the political classes whose botched diplomacy caused the war.


  5. #35
    International Regular S.Kennedy's Avatar
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    Well Haig is no Caesar and he got bogged down in breaking the stalemate which led to huge losses of life. He also had a bad habit of reinforcing failure with failure. But by 1918 he had learnt from his experiences - as had the allies as a whole. One big difference from the Somme and the 1918 battles was the inclusion of the creeping barrage. For the earlier battles the allies would fire artillery for hours on end believing the soldiers would walk through destroyed trenches and dead Germans. It never worked because German trenches were too sophisticated and defended in depth, and the artillery was too inaccurate. The time lapse between the end of the bombardment and the soldiers arriving at the German trenches was too long, meaning the Germans could successfully recover enough to man their machine gun posts and mow the Tommys down. It also had the horrible habit of alerting the Germans that a massive offensive in that part of the line was coming. allowing reinforcements!

    By 1918 the allies had dispensed with a preliminary bombardment and instead had perfected the creeping barrage which proceeded the soldiers about 40 yards ahead as they marched into no man's land.

  6. #36
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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  7. #37
    Cricketer Of The Year mr_mister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Kennedy View Post
    I just read a few books on World War One and I believe Australians focus far too much on Gallipoli. If you said the Australians (and Canadians) spearheaded the attack at Amiens which led to the Hundred Days Offensive during which the allies breached the Hindenburg line, gathered up thousands of German prisoners and guns and sent the rest scurrying back towards the Meuse, most people would go, ''ehh?'' But ''Gallipoli''! And ''Trench stalemate'' on the Western Front! Then again the Brits are obsessed with the Somme and Passchendaele in a similar way. It is as if we dwell on these battles - the French and Verdun also - which highlight the senseless futile waste of life in that war and ignore the genuine war winning finale, during which the allies used all their former mistakes to successfully break the stalemate of trench warfare. Haig and the rest of the British/Dominion generals actually come across fairly decent in the end if you read the military history.
    Dude Gallipoli was what Australia thought as its chance to prove itself

    It was pretty much our debut on the world stage
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  8. #38
    International Debutant SillyCowCorner1's Avatar
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    Oh boy, a future Samwell Tarly may have a hard time getting the history of these times... with so much 'fake' news..

  9. #39
    International Regular S.Kennedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_mister View Post
    Dude Gallipoli was what Australia thought as its chance to prove itself

    It was pretty much our debut on the world stage
    That is fair enough in itself but do not ignore the Australian corps which fought on the western front under John Monash and was one of Haig's most successful units in the final years of the war. The 1918 campaign deserves far more attention than it gets.

  10. #40
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Kennedy View Post
    That is fair enough in itself but do not ignore the Australian corps which fought on the western front under John Monash and was one of Haig's most successful units in the final years of the war. The 1918 campaign deserves far more attention than it gets.
    The success of those campaigns is not really the point. ANZACs already knew that they were damn good soldiers and always have been. The whole reason Gallipoli is celebrated is because how much of a disaster it was, which was entirely due to the British Generals who ordered it and commanded it.

    Prior to that, white NZers and Australians considered the UK the "mother country" and considered themselves part of the British Empire. The mistakes of the British commanders was a key point in history that cemented our identities as being separate from the UK, and no longer just a couple of colonial countries.
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  11. #41
    International Regular S.Kennedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The success of those campaigns is not really the point. ANZACs already knew that they were damn good soldiers and always have been. The whole reason Gallipoli is celebrated is because how much of a disaster it was, which was entirely due to the British Generals who ordered it and commanded it.

    Prior to that, white NZers and Australians considered the UK the "mother country" and considered themselves part of the British Empire. The mistakes of the British commanders was a key point in history that cemented our identities as being separate from the UK, and no longer just a couple of colonial countries.
    I'm not exactly refuting any of this. I'm simply pointing out that your average Australian is very much aware of Gallipoli and not aware that the Australian corps (NB: not the ANZAC corps which had been disbanded 1916) spearheaded the defeat of Imperial Germany alongside the Canadians at Battle of Amiens 1918! It is an impressive enough national achievement to warrant more attention I feel. I was being complimentary if anything.

    Crikey - you are touchy about that peninsular, you lot, aren't you? There is an analogy with how the other allies see that war pertaining to the Somme and Third Ypres/Passchendaele (British), Verdun (French) and Caporetto (Italians) - you'd be forgiven of thinking we'd lost that war judging by the historiography.

  12. #42
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Kennedy View Post
    I'm not exactly refuting any of this. I'm simply pointing out that your average Australian is very much aware of Gallipoli and not aware that the Australian corps (NB: not the ANZAC corps which had been disbanded 1916) spearheaded the defeat of Imperial Germany alongside the Canadians at Battle of Amiens 1918! It is an impressive enough national achievement to warrant more attention I feel. I was being complimentary if anything.

    Crikey - you are touchy about that peninsular, you lot, aren't you? There is an analogy with how the other allies see that war pertaining to the Somme and Third Ypres/Passchendaele (British), Verdun (French) and Caporetto (Italians) - you'd be forgiven of thinking we'd lost that war judging by the historiography.
    Well, it crippled the British empire, left a generation of men disfigured and traumatised, and caused a permanent shift in political and economic power away from Europe to the far side of the Atlantic. In that sense, those battles that you mentioned are much more relevant events to memorialise than the fact that the allies eventually rolled over the dying Kaiserreich in late 1918. I mean, it really probably would've been better for everyone (except maybe the Belgians) if the German plan in 1914 had worked and things had been wrapped up by Christmas.
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  13. #43
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Kennedy View Post
    I'm not exactly refuting any of this. I'm simply pointing out that your average Australian is very much aware of Gallipoli and not aware that the Australian corps (NB: not the ANZAC corps which had been disbanded 1916) spearheaded the defeat of Imperial Germany alongside the Canadians at Battle of Amiens 1918! It is an impressive enough national achievement to warrant more attention I feel. I was being complimentary if anything.

    Crikey - you are touchy about that peninsular, you lot, aren't you?
    There is an analogy with how the other allies see that war pertaining to the Somme and Third Ypres/Passchendaele (British), Verdun (French) and Caporetto (Italians) - you'd be forgiven of thinking we'd lost that war judging by the historiography.
    Yeah, we tend to get a bit tetchy about unnecessary mass slaughter of barely adult men.

    I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. For NZers and Australians there is very little interest in celebrating success - particularly in WWI where what they were fighting for isn't particularly appreciable. As I said - they knew they were good soldiers.
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  14. #44
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Kennedy View Post
    I'm not exactly refuting any of this. I'm simply pointing out that your average Australian is very much aware of Gallipoli and not aware that the Australian corps (NB: not the ANZAC corps which had been disbanded 1916) spearheaded the defeat of Imperial Germany alongside the Canadians at Battle of Amiens 1918! It is an impressive enough national achievement to warrant more attention I feel. I was being complimentary if anything.

    Crikey - you are touchy about that peninsular, you lot, aren't you? There is an analogy with how the other allies see that war pertaining to the Somme and Third Ypres/Passchendaele (British), Verdun (French) and Caporetto (Italians) - you'd be forgiven of thinking we'd lost that war judging by the historiography.
    Never mind that. They played a huge role in stopping the Hun in the early part of 1918 too.

    Australians do venerate Gallipoli too much imo. One of the most cringeworthy things I've seen was the 01 Ashes teams in the trenches there wearing slouch hats. I mean, come on.

  15. #45
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Spikey's Avatar
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    We absolutely do but equally I don't think it's particularly surprising
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