Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 53
Like Tree6Likes

Thread: Barcelona

  1. #31
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A Blood Rainbow
    Posts
    44,584
    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    No one here.....as of yet. But we're being treated to it by a lot of the media and intellectuals covering it. And there are undoubtedly people on here who think the same, which I find just as insidious and retrograde as the bigoted crap which Scaly posted.
    I very much doubt anyone here believes something as extreme as "Islam has literally nothing to do with Salafi-jihadist terrorism".
    hendrix likes this.
    do you think people will be allowed to make violins?
    who's going to make the violins?

    forever 63*

  2. #32
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I very much doubt anyone here believes something as extreme as "Islam has literally nothing to do with Salafi-jihadist terrorism".
    Saying Salafists are perverting the scripture draws very near to that. And there are people on here spinning that ****.

  3. #33
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    13,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    Saying Salafists are perverting the scripture draws very near to that. And there are people on here spinning that ****.
    I'm not saying that but I am saying that to properly disagree with the overall meaning of such a statement you have to consider that:

    a) The scripture is not the entire meaning of the religion.
    b) You probably need to have a decent grasp of classical Arabic and Islamic literature to have a proper opinion on the scripture (which not even native Arabic speakers have)
    c) Meaning the interpretation obviously becomes very important, hence scholars.

    So saying that they're "perverting the scripture" might not be accurate but again if you're going to disagree with that notion you damn sure can't pronounce the opposite is true (i.e. they're simply following their religion and their religion has led them down this course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    "You don't look like me in this world without being firm on what you want to do."

    - Hashim Amla.
    Quote Originally Posted by DriveClub View Post
    He bowls with a lot of heart, his heart makes the ball bounce more

  4. #34
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    yeah, but much of the sneering also comes from a place of complete ignorance of what the world used to be like
    Some of it, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    the Abbasid dynasty springs to mind immediately as a place much much better to live in than any contemporary christian state of its day (and many since). The Islamic world carried the torch of civilization for quite some time after the fall of the Western Roman and Sassanid Empires.
    We're not comparing it to christian states with which it was contemorary, though. You stated ISIS and the later Ottoman's were a disgrace to previous Islamic states.

    And a lot of that so called torch carrying happened in direct opposition to theocracy and religious rule.


  5. #35
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    13,544
    So yeah I do think one can say that jihadi and terrorists are taking a perverted interpretation of Islam in contrast with mainstream Islam. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

  6. #36
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    BJ Watling's luxurious curls
    Posts
    36,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    We're not comparing it to christian states with which it was contemorary, though. You stated ISIS and the later Ottoman's were a disgrace to previous Islamic states.
    they are. do you think ISIS want poetry about hot chix, greek philosophers, being reasonably chill to other religions and booze in their little state?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    I need u like Henry Nicholls needs batting school
    He was terrible in that series
    I need u like Ross Taylor needed to be fit
    He's way better than Henry Nicholls
    And now all I can think about is your smile
    and that ****** test series too
    Losing to Australia sucked and I miss you
    Proudly supporting Central Districts
    RIP Craig Walsh

  7. #37
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    So yeah I do think one can say that jihadi and terrorists are taking a perverted interpretation of Islam in contrast with mainstream Islam. I don't think that's a controversial statement.
    That jihadists constitute a numerically smaller number of people than non-jihadists or people who adhere to what you call mainstream Islam, I obviously won't disagree. But their, the jihadis', views do not become perversions simply because they are at odds or incongruent with the mainstream. I hope you would agree with that. My issue is with the perceived double-standard. Why are only the marginal, violent believers or extreme conservatives considered perverted, yet those who have a conception of Islam that is so denatured of scriptural and historical basis, are not? Why are Muslims who are peaceful people but only nominally religious considered to be representative of Islam by so many people?

  8. #38
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    they are. do you think ISIS want poetry about hot chix, greek philosophers, being reasonably chill to other religions and booze in their little state?
    I think we're just going to end up having a relativistic discussion here.

    But yes, well done to Islamic civilisation for allowing their Christian Aramean subjects to translate Aristotle to them. That was very chill of them. Until, you know, they weren't..........again.

  9. #39
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    13,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    That jihadists constitute a numerically smaller number of people than non-jihadists or people who adhere to what you call mainstream Islam, I obviously won't disagree. But their, the jihadis', views do not become perversions simply because they are at odds or incongruent with the mainstream. I hope you would agree with that. My issue is with the perceived double-standard. Why are only the marginal, violent believers or extreme conservatives considered perverted, yet those who have a conception of Islam that is so denatured of scriptural and historical basis, are not? Why are Muslims who are peaceful people but only nominally religious considered to be representative of Islam by so many people?
    No, I don't. A religion is something people practice with some type of consensus. People pray at mosques and practice religious events as a community. It's not total consensus, but it's pretty common. And where there's a break in consensus you have different schools.

    And even if the "true" interpretation Qura'n's words did align more closely with ISIS' interpretation than the mainstream view, I still don't think that changes much. In New Zealand the law technically states that abortions are only legal if the doctor believes the mother's health to be at risk. However, doctor interpretations of this law have pretty much meant that abortions are legal in New Zealand, and I don't believe that anyone has been prosecuted as a result of this law. The end result: can you get an abortion in New Zealand simply for not wanting to have a baby right now? Yes. That's a description of reality. It's annoying that the lawmakers haven't gotten around to editing the law. But it doesn't change the consensus and the actual reality of getting an abortion in NZ.

  10. #40
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    No, I don't. A religion is something people practice with some type of consensus. People pray at mosques and practice religious events as a community. It's not total consensus, but it's pretty common. And where there's a break in consensus you have different schools.

    And even if the "true" interpretation Qura'n's words did align more closely with ISIS' interpretation than the mainstream view, I still don't think that changes much.
    That changes everything for mine. One of the reasons why I think moderates and critics have such a hard time arguing with fanatics is precisely because the latter can often find a lot of scriptural basis as well as historical examples in the life of Muhammad for what they want and are doing.

    I get the point you're trying to make about religion being more than words on a page. But I think my point stands anyway. If the books say; don't do A, and most do, except for a tiny minority, I'm not going to turn around and say the minority is perverting the religion just because the majority ignore or no longer take seriously that part of the scripture. It can't simply be the case that the religion is an amorphous phenomenon best understood by the interpretations most wide-spread. Especially when there are so many passages which leave little room for 'development of doctrine' or progression/evolution.

    Anyways, I feel we've had this discussion before so perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

  11. #41
    Yes, I'm afraid ISIS and other such violent neanderthals are the ones who are following the destructive cult of Islam more closely than the moderates.

    The 'moderates' or more typical Muslims are basically a halfway house between depraved barbarity and logical human decency. They are moderating Islam with their own moral standards. How much of Islam they ignore and what they ignore obviously varies. Still plenty of Muslims are homophobic, but moderates may have an apologist stance for when fellow cultists are busy throwing gays off buildings whereas they wouldn't do it themselves. Just as most of those supporting the Nazis didn't go around gassing Jews. But the statistics for Muslims agreeing or supporting such barbarism are undoubtedly scary.

    Ultimately Islam is a fundamentally evil and destructive movement. In-breeding, extreme homophobia, death for apostasy, misogyny, anti-education and anti-reasoning, lack of freedoms, corruption, paedophilia. They are all characteristics of Muslim countries. It will remain that way until Islam is wiped out or heavily reformed. Islam is a regressive culture. It is a warmongering religion.

    Christianity has at least evolved to be more peaceful after the Hollywood-style rewrite and the Old Testament being kind of swept under the carpet.
    World Scrabble Champion 2014. National Scrabble Champion 2009, 2015.
    Author of Word Addict
    Countdown Series 57 Champion
    King of the Arcade
    ECB - you are a complete ****ing disgrace, #FTECB

  12. #42
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A Blood Rainbow
    Posts
    44,584
    Quote Originally Posted by Scaly piscine View Post
    Yes, I'm afraid ISIS and other such violent neanderthals are the ones who are following the destructive cult of Islam more closely than the moderates.

    The 'moderates' or more typical Muslims are basically a halfway house between depraved barbarity and logical human decency. They are moderating Islam with their own moral standards. How much of Islam they ignore and what they ignore obviously varies. Still plenty of Muslims are homophobic, but moderates may have an apologist stance for when fellow cultists are busy throwing gays off buildings whereas they wouldn't do it themselves. Just as most of those supporting the Nazis didn't go around gassing Jews. But the statistics for Muslims agreeing or supporting such barbarism are undoubtedly scary.

    Ultimately Islam is a fundamentally evil and destructive movement. In-breeding, extreme homophobia, death for apostasy, misogyny, anti-education and anti-reasoning, lack of freedoms, corruption, paedophilia. They are all characteristics of Muslim countries. It will remain that way until Islam is wiped out or heavily reformed. Islam is a regressive culture. It is a warmongering religion.

    Christianity has at least evolved to be more peaceful after the Hollywood-style rewrite and the Old Testament being kind of swept under the carpet.
    Thanks for the casual encouragement of genocide, you seem like such a great and proper person who deserves political power.

  13. #43
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    13,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Scaly piscine View Post
    Yes, I'm afraid ISIS and other such violent neanderthals are the ones who are following the destructive cult of Islam more closely than the moderates.

    The 'moderates' or more typical Muslims are basically a halfway house between depraved barbarity and logical human decency. They are moderating Islam with their own moral standards. How much of Islam they ignore and what they ignore obviously varies. Still plenty of Muslims are homophobic, but moderates may have an apologist stance for when fellow cultists are busy throwing gays off buildings whereas they wouldn't do it themselves. Just as most of those supporting the Nazis didn't go around gassing Jews. But the statistics for Muslims agreeing or supporting such barbarism are undoubtedly scary.

    Ultimately Islam is a fundamentally evil and destructive movement. In-breeding, extreme homophobia, death for apostasy, misogyny, anti-education and anti-reasoning, lack of freedoms, corruption, paedophilia. They are all characteristics of Muslim countries. It will remain that way until Islam is wiped out or heavily reformed. Islam is a regressive culture. It is a warmongering religion.

    Christianity has at least evolved to be more peaceful after the Hollywood-style rewrite and the Old Testament being kind of swept under the carpet.
    You have no idea what you're talking about.

  14. #44
    U19 Debutant Munificent_Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by Scaly piscine View Post
    The 'moderates' or more typical Muslims are basically a halfway house between depraved barbarity and logical human decency.
    They're really not. Moderate Muslims when asked are pretty outspokenly averse to groups like ISIS and other purveyors of barbarism, for a variety of reasons. Some of which, like that it's perversion of the faith, I don't agree with, but that they are opposed to barbarism in general is pretty clear.

    It's slanderous to say otherwise.
    hendrix likes this.

  15. #45
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    13,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    They're really not. Moderate Muslims when asked are pretty outspokenly averse to groups like ISIS and other purveyors of barbarism, for a variety of reasons. Some of which, like that it's perversion of the faith, I don't agree with, but that they are opposed to barbarism in general is pretty clear.

    It's slanderous to say otherwise.
    .
    A lot of them say thing like "they are not Muslims" which is obviously not true. It's a deeply embarrassing thing for most of them and they obviously want to dissociate themselves from it as much as possible.

    It's similar to politics in the region as well. People just straight up reject even having an opinion on things because of how fed up they are. I know we don't think our politicians are model citizens or anything, but we can call out corruption when we see it. Over there there's just this overwhelming, choking cynicism. There's also the enduring tribalism that's a big factor in driving nepotism, which further erodes credibility. IMO those are some of the most critical factors in driving religious radicalisation.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Xavi Leaves Barcelona Thread
    By harsh.ag in forum General Sports Forum
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 01-06-2015, 11:53 PM
  2. Week 17 (PTA): Barcelona [Blanco]
    By SirBloody Idiot in forum Cricket Web Tennis
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 29-01-2011, 11:53 PM
  3. David Beckham to Barcelona?
    By Tim in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-06-2003, 11:12 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •