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Thread: The mouth breathing youtube media uh stars own crappy thread

  1. #151
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    And I'm saying the person he is on Twitter and real life is the same. His comments just sound incendiary there because people don't know what he's actually talking about. He's not employing some fraudulent facade for attention. What gets him attention is how people tend to interpret his views as controversial. That happens both inside and outside twitter - it's just that on Youtube, for e.g., he gets 2-3 hours to expand. To go back to your original point: he is not resorting to reductio ad absurdum as you claim, it's just that some comments written in 140 characters will appear absurd to someone who doesn't know the broader context of what is being argued. He makes plenty of strong claims in his lectures as well, the man doesn't just employ it to gain attention.

    Anyway, that's the last part that needs explanation I think.
    Last edited by Ikki; 23-01-2018 at 01:59 AM.
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  2. #152
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    And I'm saying the person he is on Twitter and real life is the same. His comments just sound incendiary there because people don't know what he's actually talking about.
    No one is the same person they are on Twitter as they are on real life. It's utterly impossible. You have no control over who retweets what, and what tweets get volume and what not, which means that your persona is fundamentally outside your control to a certain extent. Add to that the fact that Twitter has its context-stripping character limit, and it's hardly surprising that people make judgements based on that persona. Who, unpersuaded, would want to watch videos of someone whose only exposure is through that medium? A shame, but that's how Twitter works.

    This is stupid beyond belief. If you wanted to ask about what I think about x issue or y issue you could have done that, but no, you deliberately distorted very plain posts way out of meaning to make isolated critiques about his tweeting into some sort of personal hatred to prove some utterly spurious point about how critiques of him are all personal in nature. Dire.
    Last edited by Spark; 23-01-2018 at 02:06 AM.
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  3. #153
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    And I'm saying the person he is on Twitter and real life is the same. His comments just sound incendiary there because people don't know what he's actually talking about. He's not employing some fraudulent facade for attention. What gets him attention is how people tend to interpret his views as controversial. That happens both inside and outside twitter - it's just that on Youtube, for e.g., he gets 2-3 hours to expand. To go back to your original point: he is not resorting to reductio ad absurdum as you claim, it's just that some comments written in 140 characters will appear absurd to someone who doesn't know the broader context of what is being argued. He makes plenty of strong claims in his lectures as well, the man doesn't just employ it to gain attention.

    Anyway, that's the last part that needs explanation I think.
    I didn't say he was, christ.

    Despite your evidence-free assertions, I have actually watched a few of his videos. But not the ones posted by his fanboys entitled "Jordan Peterson DESTROYS [leftist position]", I refuse to give those a millionth of a cent worth of viewtime out of principle.

    But re: the "regurgitated Christian theology" thing. Again, that's not what I said. I said that his views are completely unremarkable to anyone familiar with Christian theology. Much of his academic work, from what I've seen, is more or less about Original Sin doctrine (and other closely associated Christian doctrines) viewed through the filter of Jungian psychology. And look, this isn't new, either within theology or within psychology (Carl Gustav Jung did a lot of work along the same lines, and I believe Peterson is extremely favourable to Jung's work which is unsurprising given the diametrically opposed view of Jung vs Freud on religion), and it makes perfect sense that he would rely heavily on this doctrine, which is as old as Agustine of Hippo, since he is very openly a devout Christian. It's not earth-shatteringly new, that's all, and I doubt that he would have a problem with an analysis as such.

    Now, obviously, his academic work spans beyond that. But his public lectures and books (on potential-for-evil etc) are very clearly based on that doctrine.
    Last edited by Spark; 23-01-2018 at 02:54 AM.

  4. #154
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    You’re being too kind imo. He either means his culture war tweets or he doesn’t. Ausage and Ikki hated the suggestion that either of those was the case.
    You're right. The best way to evaluate the man is what he posts on Twitter.
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  5. #155
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    You're right. The best way to evaluate the man is what he posts on Twitter.
    Haha, the irony is that Uppercut and Ikki are essentially arguing the same thing here, and you're arguing the same thing I am
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  6. #156
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Is there an academic paper or something he's written on it then? Scientific claims require a bigger burden of proof than "because serotonin".

    Look, I admit I haven't read much of the guy or listened to him. Just that that particular line of argument seemed dubious to me off the top off my head. Will be happy to retract my criticism if someone more informed than me can validate it or explain it more thoroughly. If there are examples of species having serotonin receptors and no social hierarchies, it would defeat his argument.

    EDIT : I haven't watched Ikki's videos, so I'll do that and get back
    But why would you expect him to go into that level of detail in a 10 minute television interview in which he was being ambushed?

  7. #157
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    But why would you expect him to go into that level of detail in a 10 minute television interview in which he was being ambushed?
    To be fair, the identification of a mechanism is kind of absolutely central to the whole argument, not just a detail.
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  8. #158
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    I have no opinion on JBP as I haven’t really read/listened to much of what he says.

    I see he has written a self-help book recently. Has anybody read it?

  9. #159
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Haha, the irony is that Uppercut and Ikki are essentially arguing the same thing here, and you're arguing the same thing I am
    Sort of. Ikkis arguing he's not being disingenuous on his Twitter, just maybe not articulating himself well enough due to the medium. I don't follow his Twitter (nor anyone else's) so I don't really have an opinion either way. The Venezuela tweet was pretty harmless and in line with the opinions of many who are skeptical of collectivism and Peterson certainly falls into that category. I don't know the context of the feminism/Islam one so I don't really have a strong view of it.

    I see your point roughly as "His Twitter sucks, but Twitter isn't the best judge of a humans worth so w/e." I don't have an opinion on the first part, but I think Twitter is the closest thing to an everburning dumpster fire spewing noxious gas that the internet has and even nodding in its direction is doing your immediate surroundings a disservice. In that I appear to be on my own.

    I'm not really sure what Uppercuts point is other than being wrong about a guy he clearly doesn't like and disagreeing with me and Ikki.
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  10. #160
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    To be fair, the identification of a mechanism is kind of absolutely central to the whole argument, not just a detail.
    Sure. If he was presenting a paper I'd expect more. But there?

  11. #161
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Sort of. Ikkis arguing he's not being disingenuous on his Twitter, just maybe not articulating himself well enough due to the medium. I don't follow his Twitter (nor anyone else's) so I don't really have an opinion either way. The Venezuela tweet was pretty harmless and in line with the opinions of many who are skeptical of collectivism and Peterson certainly falls into that category. I don't know the context of the feminism/Islam one so I don't really have a strong view of it.

    I see your point roughly as "His Twitter sucks, but Twitter isn't the best judge of a humans worth so w/e." I don't have an opinion on the first part, but I think Twitter is the closest thing to an everburning dumpster fire spewing noxious gas that the internet has and even nodding in its direction is doing your immediate surroundings a disservice. In that I appear to be on my own.

    I'm not really sure what Uppercuts point is other than being wrong about a guy he clearly doesn't like and disagreeing with me and Ikki.
    Yeah that's basically it, and your analysis of Twitter is semi-accurate, but to be fair it is a really, really effective service for getting in touch with certain academic or political-academic circles, and also extremely effective (comparatively) at aggregating news at source-level from places where it's really hard to get coverage. 90% of what I know about Yemen is through Twitter, for better or worse.

    What it is not good is any sort of civil reasonable debate between people who disagree on anything deep, really.

  12. #162
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Sure. If he was presenting a paper I'd expect more. But there?
    I think it's still important. Without a mechanism the whole thing simply falls apart (this is my critique of much of psychology and evolutionary psychology and evolutionary sociology). Even just mentioning it with a word would do.

  13. #163
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Do think JP should also think about the effect of his Twitter persona. He's smart (relatively) and seems to have a deep appreciation of second order effects in his videos, and "my tweeting doesn't make me responsible for what my rabid fans get up to", while true of course, isn't a thoughtful person's response imo. Twitter is anyways not a place for a thoughtful person to be and I would respect him more if he was absent from there completely.
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  14. #164
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Yeah that's basically it, and your analysis of Twitter is semi-accurate, but to be fair it is a really, really effective service for getting in touch with certain academic or political-academic circles, and also extremely effective (comparatively) at aggregating news at source-level from places where it's really hard to get coverage. 90% of what I know about Yemen is through Twitter, for better or worse.

    What it is not good is any sort of civil reasonable debate between people who disagree on anything deep, really.
    I think the things it's ok at could be done better on other platforms, but end up on Twitter because it's the best way to get large volumes of eyeballs. In other words without it I think we'd have (or there'd be a market opportunity for) a platform which does those things better without the bullshit.

  15. #165
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Do think JP should also think about the effect of his Twitter persona. He's smart (relatively) and seems to have a deep appreciation of second order effects in his videos, and "my tweeting doesn't make me responsible for what my rabid fans get up to", while true of course, isn't a thoughtful person's response imo. Twitter is anyways not a place for a thoughtful person to be and I would respect him more if he was absent from there completely.
    Yeah I agree. I like his stuff on how Biblical stories get translated through psychological analysis as forming the patterns from the basis of society (although I would strongly critique the degree to which he claims that the particular myths that rose out of the very, very, very idiosyncratic geopolitical and social conditions in which Judaism arose resulted in an, at the time, highly idiosyncratic religion in the extremely personal and unitary nature of God). I just find the culture war stuff relentlessly tedious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I think the things it's ok at could be done better on other platforms, but end up on Twitter because it's the best way to get large volumes of eyeballs. In other words without it I think we'd have (or there'd be a market opportunity for) a platform which does those things better without the bullshit.
    For now though, it's the best we have. Which says a lot.

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