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Thread: Political Correctness Gone Mad

  1. #3946
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Hah yeah I got one of those this morning. Spruking a high speed train line in Melbourne. They can't have much of my personal data if they think that's going to resonate.
    Look, it really should. If there's one thing that should legitimately be funded by the Government, it's getting the **** out of Melbourne as quickly as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    The bolded is simply untrue, I'm afraid. In fact, rarely have I seen a statement so divorced from reality and every available piece of evidence.
    Ok explain (for example) how digging iron out of the ground for use within society is taking away from other people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    As for the question as to why institutions are created which "monopolise force" (a common phrase of the libertarian which is also bullshit - force comes in many forms and is used in a lot of different ways by individuals, corporations and by States, it's just that your lot like to use this sort of language only as it applies to govt institutions), there are plentiful reasons why.
    Nonsense corporations don't have the power to make you buy their goods at gunpoint and the use of force by individuals against other individuals is outlawed and if there is proof of an individual using force against another they're arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    First among them would be, and again I'm dealing with the real world so let's leave the libertopian bubble for a moment; that people collectivize and devote resources to institutions which they believe will protect their individual and collective interests. Note that I include collective interests, as in real life people do more than just sit in their studies and count their own gold. Whether that's investing in a standing military or police force to defend their land/ resources/ selves; a competition or consumer watchdog to oversee business behaviour (I know the fragile free marketeer mind can't contemplate a business actually doing something wrong, but again, in the real world it actually happens); a public health or education system which provides a standard of care to citizens so they don't need a credit check before being admitted to an emergency ward; a public transport system to get people around the joint, including to and from the place where they produce the precious resources which are at the forefront of your mind. There are a stack of others as well.
    And this collective investment into military and police can only be done through a state because? Nope I know perfectly well that businesses can behave poorly, but in a free society, where individuals aren't coerced, if a business is acting shittily then people can vote with their wallets and not buy their goods. Also why can't you have private consumer watchdogs? As if businesses won't invest in transportation when it's a vital component to their business succeeding I guess all the private railways of America in the 1800's that did fantastic (until the US government decided to **** about with them) didn't occur?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    These are things which people are, by and large, happy enough to contribute to. How do I know that? Because, thankfully, when libertarians stand for public office they get about 3% or less of the vote. They get such a low vote because out int he real world, people realise the libertarian ideal is nothing more than a grandiose fiction. Why some people are obsessed with "muh private property rights" is ****ing bizarre to me. I suspect it's the operation of Burge's Second Law, which I'm sure you won't agree with: Generally, those who so value the primacy of individual property rights are those who themselves have done **** all to earn said property, and instead have had it bestowed upon them by their parents.
    We have a marketing issue so what? How many normal people even understand what the libertarian ideology consists off? How many people even know there are ideologies outside of the standard fair of Socialism/Fascism/Liberalism/Conservative? And how many of the people who know know about these ideologies actually understand them? The vast majority of people aren't interested in politics past the surface level and vote either along the tribals lines of 'oh well my father and my father's father voted Labour so I'll vote labour too', nice sound bites or revenged voting because they're pissed off with what the current government is doing. Because Private Property rights are the single most important rights that underpin all of our societies, just look at the destitution of places where property rights aren't strong, secure and properly protected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    You may not be happy to be taxed and to contribute to, for example, a public education system. I'm pissed off that a single cent of public money subsidizes private schools. But I don't throw my toys out of the cot and pretend that my freedom has been compromised because the State takes some of my (plentiful, frankly) hard earned and pumps it into a second swimming pool at King's School. Putting up with that sort of **** is the trade off in being part of a society. A society which allows, in our case, citizens to both vote out of office those who we think are doing a rubbish job, to run for office ourselves if we are prepared to take the drop in salary and become an MP, Minister or even head honcho and to advocate for our own pet obsession should we wish to.
    I'd much rather have control over my own money to decide who and where I contribute to society for things like education as that's the only way things are ever going to improve, something that cannot happen under a public education system, or do you actually think things are getting better in the education systems across the western world? I agree, public money shouldn't ever be used to subsidize any private business. No putting up with that sort of **** is the trade off for having a overbearing government. Yeah and what good has voting out politicians been doing in the west? Things continue to rot and not get better and discontent continues to grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I get the impression from your posts that you think a State is purely or primarily there to protect individual property rights. I think it has a greater role to play in a society. Perhaps that's one of the bigger points of difference between our outlooks. I don't see the measure of a society as being the aggregated net worth of it's citizenry. It's more than that.
    Yes you think the state should micromanage people's lives, because you're an authoritarian control freak. If a state is necessary then it's only valid role is to protect property rights, anything else in meddling in peoples lives.
    Last edited by Groundking; 11-01-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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  4. #3949
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Libertarians are by far the biggest problem with libertarianism, as this exchange is demonstrating.
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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Also wtf is this fiction that the 1800s US railways was an entirely private enterprise unsupported by government until they came in and ruined everything?

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    Cricketer Of The Year StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Also wtf is this fiction that the 1800s US railways was an entirely private enterprise unsupported by government until they came in and ruined everything?
    To many spaghetti westerns?
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    Haha invoking the old western railroads as the basis for any argument is just great. I don't think there will ever be an instance in which that isn't amusing to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Partly. The title is really dire and it does highlight some of the problems having a power vacuum attracts. But there are some good signs there and I don't think "but muh Somalia" is anywhere near as good an argument as the statists who are looking to bash Libertarians with it think it is.

    That said I don't think some good happening is necessarily a checkmate for Libertarians either.
    Haha but you’re the one who brought up Somalia! What you’re saying might be fair enough if I’d tried to use Somalia as a kind of gotcha, but when I ask a no-government advocate for an example of a no-government state, ‘Somalia might not actually be any worse than some horrific sub-Saharan dictatorships’ isn’t a strong response.

    What’s the success story for no state? If you had to point to one place, past or present, to show it can work, what would it be?

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Haha but you’re the one who brought up Somalia! What you’re saying might be fair enough if I’d tried to use Somalia as a kind of gotcha, but when I ask a no-government advocate for an example of a no-government state, ‘Somalia might not actually be any worse than some horrific sub-Saharan dictatorships’ isn’t a strong response.

    What’s the success story for no state? If you had to point to one place, past or present, to show it can work, what would it be?
    Republican Spain

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    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Libertarians are by far the biggest problem with libertarianism, as this exchange is demonstrating.
    What an absolutely shitbag post to a guy who’s taken the time to give his honest and well thought out views.

    Or to put it another way, the biggest problem with statism is statists as many of your posts in this subbie indicate

  11. #3956
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Views that the last 70 years have seen an inexorable and undeniable slide into tyranny and decay with no differences between democracy and autocracy? This is fantasy land stuff, completely fictional, with no relation to the actual problems - climate change, displacement due to automation - faced by modern society.

    Again, it's one thing to advocate for views. It's another to suggest that the population at large is blinded by false consciousness and that your fringe views would be naturally taken up immediately if not for The Man.
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  12. #3957
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundking View Post
    Ok explain (for example) how digging iron out of the ground for use within society is taking away from other people?
    .
    Do you seriously need other people to answer this for you?

    It's this type of complete absence of thought, absence of even a throwaway recognition of the realities of life that makes Spark question the sincerity of your posting.

    You can still be a libertarian while recognising the inherent social, economic and environmental cost of production.
    Last edited by hendrix; 11-01-2019 at 07:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Do you seriously need other people to answer this for you?

    It's this type of complete absence of thought, absence of even a throwaway recognition of the realities of life that makes Spark question the sincerity of your posting.

    You can still be a libertarian while recognising the inherent social, economic and environmental cost of production.
    Yes, why do you think libertarians don't consider these things? First the first two you benefit, society benefits from the extraction of resources to be used to better the lives of the people, because of this it's also a positive economically. Do you not think that in a free society with robust laws and standards the environment wouldn't be protected?

  14. #3959
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Haha but you’re the one who brought up Somalia! What you’re saying might be fair enough if I’d tried to use Somalia as a kind of gotcha, but when I ask a no-government advocate for an example of a no-government state, ‘Somalia might not actually be any worse than some horrific sub-Saharan dictatorships’ isn’t a strong response.

    What’s the success story for no state? If you had to point to one place, past or present, to show it can work, what would it be?
    I wasn't suggesting you were bashing me over the head with it, "If you hate government so much why don't you move to Somalia?" is just a thing that people say from time to time. There appear to be some good indicators there, but really that just shows that getting rid of an awful corrupt government will generally be a good thing. I'm not going to hold it up as proof of anything.

    As to examples, there really isnt any that prove much either way, as you'd well know. The likelihood of government being meaningfully shrunk in the first world isn't something I have any illusions about either.
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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    The likelihood of government being meaningfully shrunk in the first world isn't something I have any illusions about either.
    I disagree with this; but if you're looking for libertarian political programmes to achieve it then yes that's something I would find unlikely. It's more likely that the state simply becomes irrelevant.



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