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Thread: Political Correctness Gone Mad

  1. #151
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Yeah I'm not attacking your point, but in the context of the discussion, it's important to note that the idea that illegal immigrants migrate with the intention of becoming a beneficiary is ludicrous given their illegal stature, and even more ludicrous to suggest that they're likely to succeed in this intent.
    Yeah, fair enough, but it's also plainly wrong to suggest the complete reverse was true, and it seemed to be that it could be inferred that this was possibly what was implicitly being suggested earlier.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    How about economist?
    Haha yeah definitely wouldn't want to be associated with those guys.

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  4. #154
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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  6. #156
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Immigrants or illegal immigrants is irrelevant. You are coming from a nationalistic perspective.

    I will make this really simple for you.
    i) A Mexican commits murder in Mexico
    ii) A Mexican illegally migrates to the USA and commits murder

    They are both the same thing. So when talking about crimes "as a consequence of illegal migration", if you're going to be truly honest in liberal judgement you will consider a global perspective.

    Hence crime is not "spontaneously" generated. Bad people do bad things, and this is bad, wherever it happens. People need to stop thinking that having bad people in America is bad, and start thinking that having bad people in the world is bad.
    I know this wasn't addressed to me and I'm certainly not of the same position as the person to whom you were responding. But isn't it somewhat natural to become nationalistic when talking about crime committed by illegal immigrants if it's your tax dollars being used to police/investigate/prosecute such occurrences?

    Perhaps I missed the gravamen of the discussion.

  7. #157
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    I know this wasn't addressed to me and I'm certainly not of the same position as the person to whom you were responding. But isn't it somewhat natural to become nationalistic when talking about crime committed by illegal immigrants if it's your tax dollars being used to police/investigate/prosecute such occurrences?

    Perhaps I missed the gravamen of the discussion.

    This is a good point but I do think you have missed my thrust. The general point was that Ikki's self-description as a libertarian sometimes confuses me when he brings up traditionally conservative topics such as immigration (and feminism, race relations etc.) somewhat regularly.

    His literal quote was "We are in a world where some think cracking down on people who have illegally entered their country is racist"

    The sentence implies advocacy for "cracking down on illegal immigration". Which is not the same thing as dealing with crime as a result of illegal immigration. I can understand frustration at wasted taxpayer dollar on the illegal crimes part, but surely a libertarian would be equally concerned with the "cracking down" on illegal immigration full stop - as this itself is a cost. Moreover, if one is concerned with wasted taxpayer dollar cracking down on crime in the US, one must also consider wasted taxpayer dollar cracking down on crime in Mexico.

    I can see your point that my taxpayer dollar = necessitating nationalistic in my thinking. But Ikki was talking more from a hypothetical and general point of view here, not from the point of view of what is desirable for the individual taxpayer. Otherwise we might as well say that it's great for Kanye West if Trump passes a decree that he gets all of Jay Z's assets - it's true that it's good for him but so what?
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  8. #158
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    You have not understood a word I said. Please read carefully.

    Immigrants or illegal immigrants is irrelevant. You are coming from a nationalistic perspective.

    I will make this really simple for you.
    i) A Mexican commits murder in Mexico
    ii) A Mexican illegally migrates to the USA and commits murder

    They are both the same thing. So when talking about crimes "as a consequence of illegal migration", if you're going to be truly honest in liberal judgement you will consider a global perspective.

    Hence crime is not "spontaneously" generated. Bad people do bad things, and this is bad, wherever it happens. People need to stop thinking that having bad people in America is bad, and start thinking that having bad people in the world is bad.
    You have an absurd argument when you are not differentiating what is clearly the most important differentiating factor for the policy that is being proposed. You are not arguing reality.

    And Libertarians are not anarchists nor are they anti-state. They believe in a limited government and thus the global perspective you have is irrelevant because they are not necessarily globalists. This is the second time you've tried to use some kind of catch-me argument without even knowing the simple tenets of what you are arguing. You can be a Libertarian and want open borders or closed ones - a wall existing doesn't necessitate an anti-immigrant migration policy.


    you're being really dishonest.
    - If it wasn't illegal they wouldn't be criminals. Obviously.
    - How can illegal immigrants use the welfare state?
    - Most come for more work opportunities
    - Some become gangsters and drug dealers. See the above paragraph. Gang violence is bad wherever it is.
    - People use crime stats to show that illegal immigrants commit more crime and are more likely to, my point previously is that this is a logical position to hold (although it is debatable) because the person who is already of the type to commit a crime, and that is prima facie proven.
    -Illegal immigrants are able to use many government subsidised programs for example in America Medicaid and schooling directly and other government programs subsidised indirectly
    -So?
    -So?
    Last edited by Ikki; 24-06-2017 at 01:41 AM.
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  9. #159
    International Captain indiaholic's Avatar
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    Ikki what statistics do you have to prove that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes?
    Quote Originally Posted by duffer View Post
    Heh.

  10. #160
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    I don't think any stats prove it although you can Google and find arguments either way. It's something that can't be proven conclusively or convincingly because of the very nature of the immigrant being undocumented. I don't even agree with it but it is disingenuous to pretend it is not a concern. It is that disingenuousness that curtails discussion because people seek to control the language and thus arguments people bring against illegal immigration are shut down because of political correctness.

  11. #161
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    - People use crime stats to show that illegal immigrants commit more crime and are more likely to, my point previously is that this is a logical position to hold (although it is debatable) because the person who is already of the type to commit a crime, and that is prima facie proven.
    -Illegal immigrants are able to use many government subsidised programs for example in America Medicaid and schooling directly and other government programs subsidised indirectly
    -So?
    -So?
    This is somewhere between wrong and a malicious lie. Illegal immigrants are barred by law from accessing Medicaid etc directly, they only do so because Medicaid helps fund certain emergency medical services and no doctor worthy of the name is going to turn away a mother in the middle of labour because they were undocumented.
    Last edited by Spark; 24-06-2017 at 06:05 AM.
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  12. #162
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Ikki, aren't you legally trained? What knowest thou about propensity evidence?

  13. #163
    rather mad Norwegian Magrat Garlick's Avatar
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    Having had a long think with some bizarre ideas over the weekend, I do think deconstructing absolutely every stereotype for the purpose of social justice might not be a good idea yet. They do make the world easier to navigate when dealing with cultural exchange. And some of us need to learn to be privates and not chase every wild goose.

    It would be nice to have some actual small-c conservative institutions to represent that, but we need to accept that they move slowly.
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  14. #164
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend zorax's Avatar
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    More Joe Rogan stuff regarding this subject. This time Sargon of Akkad (Carl Benjamin) talks about Identity Politics - feminism, SJWs,the difference between Liberals and Progressives, and how all this nonsense is just people finding excuses to talk about themselves and not the issues at hand

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrBCsLsSD2E
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    Sargon has always been a clueless ****wit. I'd listen to almost anyone talk about identity politics and feminism but him.
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