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Thread: Change my view

  1. #1
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Shri's Avatar
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    Change my view

    https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/

    A thread based on the above sub-reddit where you can post questions for others to change the way you look at things. Do not post questions that you already have your mind set on since I don't want this **** to be a thread of never ending debates where you repeat yourselves to others over and over again. Try not to discuss topics that you are unlikely to change your views on.

    My opinion that I am inviting you to change:

    We don't really need zorax around at CW.


    People who wish to get on a waiting list for an organ must forcibly be put on an organ donor list if their body has something worth taking.


    Go.
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  2. #2
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shri View Post
    People who wish to get on a waiting list for an organ must forcibly be put on an organ donor list if their body has something worth taking.
    My preliminary take on this (without having read up on it much) would be this is the kind of thing people start believing in when having gone down the non-market path in the first place. Additional steps seem palatable because of the previous steps taken, since, given the system as it exists, it may be lead to better outcomes.

    None of this would be required if there was a market for organs. Of course it would have to be designed well with safeguards, and there are good ways to do that, but it would essentially work based on market based incentives.
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  3. #3
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shri View Post
    People who wish to get on a waiting list for an organ must forcibly be put on an organ donor list if their body has something worth taking.
    Everyone has the right to choose what happens to their bodies while they're alive, and they or their next of kin have the right to choose what happens to their organs/bodies when they are deceased.

    Personally I think that ethically someone should consent to being on the organ donor list, particularly if they are to be, or have been, a recipient. However, I don't know who can forcibly make someone become a donor. Also, as an organ donor, I wouldn't begrudge someone who wasn't a registered donor receiving my organs should they need them if I die. Because A) they need them, and B) IDGAF because I'm dead. Good luck to them, take the whole ****ing lot!
    Last edited by Red Hill; 03-05-2017 at 05:16 AM.
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  4. #4
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post

    None of this would be required if there was a market for organs. Of course it would have to be designed well with safeguards, and there are good ways to do that, but it would essentially work based on market based incentives.
    You mean people pay for organs they need?

    Would be bad on so many levels.


  5. #5
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    You mean people pay for organs they need?

    Would be bad on so many levels.
    People, or insurance companies.

    It's perfectly fine to do it. With safeguards, of course, to protect the most vulnerable.
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  6. #6
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    People, or insurance companies.

    It's perfectly fine to do it,. With safeguards, of course, to protect the most vulnerable.
    I don't see how it could happen, seems far to open to rorting. The system in Australia is pretty spot on. You're an organ donor, and you do it because you want to, when you die.

    I wouldn't even mind a system where everyone is "forced" to be an organ donor, but you can opt out if you wish to.

    FWIW, so few people who die are actually eligible to be a donor anyhow. You pretty much have to either die in an ICU or emergency dept and be intubated but brain dead for any of it to be viable anyhow...and in addition be young enough/healthy enough to have worthwhile organs.
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  7. #7
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Could think about it in this fashion - Being a policeman is statistically more likely to lead to a person's death in many/most countries than donating a kidney. If it is okay for the former to be incentive based, it is perhaps not so bad for the latter to be either.
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  8. #8
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Could think about it in this fashion - Being a policeman is statistically more likely to lead to a person's death in many/most countries than donating a kidney. If it is okay for the former to be incentive based, it is perhaps not so bad for the latter to be either.
    You need to think how the scenario would typically play out though...poor people desperate for money making rash decisions to sell organs to rich people who can afford them easily. It seems pretty unethical to me.

    I'd much prefer a system that is either anonymous when the donor dies, or involves a willing (living) donor to a known recipient (ie. family) with no financial transactions.

  9. #9
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    You can`t force people to be better people... particularly by taking away the fundamental right to control their own body. And creating a market for body parts is ethically very very difficult and almost uncontrollable...
    "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they’ve found it."

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  10. #10
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    I think there'll have to be some very drastic changes on fundamental views on what it means to be human before a market for organs becomes socially acceptable.
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  11. #11
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Lets just hope we start growing replacement organs sooner rather than later.

  12. #12
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    You need to think how the scenario would typically play out though...poor people desperate for money making rash decisions to sell organs to rich people who can afford them easily. It seems pretty unethical to me.

    I'd much prefer a system that is either anonymous when the donor dies, or involves a willing (living) donor to a known recipient (ie. family) with no financial transactions.
    Well, many poor people do a lot of rash things as it is, some of which are more dangerous than giving away a kidney. I mean everyone already knows all this. Just that special privilege is accorded to organs. I don't know if that's right or wrong.

    Again, there should definitely be safeguards in place. First and foremost being educating and testing of people who want to give their organs away. You only get to do it after you pass the test, for example. Plus other safeguards experts can think up.
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  13. #13
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    I think the root of Shri's objection is that the lack of reprococity is a bit sickening. I share that instinctive contempt for people that rely on organ donors while refusing to participate and help others.

    OTOH, his solution involves the government unnecessarily. It would be better if donors were given the option to request that their organs only be used to help other willing donors. If organ free-riders bother you, tick the box, and if not, don't.
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  14. #14
    International Captain indiaholic's Avatar
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    Uppercut for president.
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  15. #15
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    I feel like people should be placed on organ donor lists by default, and have to opt out, rather than the other way around. That way the public good is prioritised, but people can still choose not to donate their organs if they don't want to for whatever reason. It's actually really difficult to donate your organs, a lot of people think they are on a "list" when they in fact aren't, and doctors don't want to be responsible for making the call that someone needs to die so their organs can be harvested when they could be kept alive potentially much longer by artificial means, and a huge portion of organ shortages originate from that issue. So I guess the best argument I can offer is that taking away people's autonomy isn't necessary, and we have other avenues available to increase organ availability.

    But I think anyone who is opposed to donating organs is basically a bad person anyway.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 03-05-2017 at 07:56 AM.
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