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Thread: 2017 NZ General Election

  1. #16
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Well it's certainly something, but should be phased in next year, not 2040 when all the baby boomers will be well retired...
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  2. #17
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Well it's certainly something, but should be phased in next year, not 2040 when all the baby boomers will be well retired...
    You can't phase it in straight away. People will have planned their whole lives around the assumption that super will be coming in at a certain point in time, it's not fair to suddenly say - nope that two years of income that you'd been banking on is gone. At least not without means testing things - which I can tell you from experience opens up an enormous can of policy worms (and I imagine a fairly large number of political worms as well). But yeah, 2040 does seem too fair off. 2030ish would seem to me a better start point - 10 years of awareness should be enough for the majority to adjust given that most people are making the majority of their income during their final working years.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 05-03-2017 at 09:15 PM.
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  3. #18
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    You can't phase it in straight away. People will have planned their whole lives around the assumption that super will be coming in at a certain point in time, it's not fair to suddenly say - nope that two years of income that you'd been banking on is gone. At least not without means testing things - which I can tell you from experience opens up an enormous can of policy worms (and I imagine a fairly large number of political worms as well). But yeah, 2040 does seem too fair off. 2030ish would seem to me a better start point - 10 years of awareness should be enough for the majority to adjust given that most people are making the majority of their income during their final working years.
    yeah obviously, I'm talking about what should've been planned for 15 years ago not now.
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  4. #19
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    Yeah it's about time. Key and Clark both dodged this one because no one wants to believe we can't sustain a ridiculous number of pensions (well we can if we crush those still working which suits those nearing retirement just fine).
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  5. #20
    Cricketer Of The Year wellAlbidarned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Yeah it's about time. Key and Clark both dodged this one because no one wants to believe we can't sustain a ridiculous number of pensions (well we can if we crush those still working which suits those nearing retirement just fine).
    shut up you ungrateful entitled little **** etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    shut up you ungrateful entitled little **** etc
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  7. #22
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    I have hit a feedback rating of 100 on trademe.

    I believe this gives me the credibility to sit for election.

    My policies will be either:
    1. Universal living allowance
    or
    2. A negative income tax

    I will have the unique capability of implementing both these policies depending on which side of the spectrum you sit.
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  8. #23
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Well...I definitely like you more than Gareth Morgan.

  9. #24
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    i'd love to see the universal living allowance trialed in NZ purely for the explosion it would cause.

  10. #25
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    The joke was that a Negative Income Tax is the exact same thing, just phrased in Milton Friedman's words. Phrasing the Universal Allowance as a "wealth redistribution" policy is not only politically stupid, it's missing out on explaining the legitimate benefits of such a system, and it turns a legitimate policy into bumbling socialist bullshit. Labour did the same thing with the Capital Gains Tax.

    The benefits to a universal allowance would actually be almost libertarian in nature in terms of a) massive cuts in government/buraucracy jobs b) less dependence on a minimum wage.

    Another thing I hate about the extreme left at the moment is the overt or tolerated anti-immigration, that borders on xenophobia, all under the guise of "protecting our house prices" or something,
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  11. #26
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The joke was that a Negative Income Tax is the exact same thing, just phrased in Milton Friedman's words. Phrasing the Universal Allowance as a "wealth redistribution" policy is not only politically stupid, it's missing out on explaining the legitimate benefits of such a system, and it turns a legitimate policy into bumbling socialist bullshit. Labour did the same thing with the Capital Gains Tax.

    The benefits to a universal allowance would actually be almost libertarian in nature in terms of a) massive cuts in government/buraucracy jobs b) less dependence on a minimum wage.

    Another thing I hate about the extreme left at the moment is the overt or tolerated anti-immigration, that borders on xenophobia, all under the guise of "protecting our house prices" or something,
    True, but I haven't seen any serious analysis of a UBI that doesn't conclude that - even after eliminating all the inefficiencies of the welfare system - a UBI will require significant tax increases to fund. So in that sense, referring to it as wealth redistribution is really the more honest way to describe it.

  12. #27
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The joke was that a Negative Income Tax is the exact same thing, just phrased in Milton Friedman's words. Phrasing the Universal Allowance as a "wealth redistribution" policy is not only politically stupid, it's missing out on explaining the legitimate benefits of such a system, and it turns a legitimate policy into bumbling socialist bullshit. Labour did the same thing with the Capital Gains Tax.

    The benefits to a universal allowance would actually be almost libertarian in nature in terms of a) massive cuts in government/buraucracy jobs b) less dependence on a minimum wage.

    Another thing I hate about the extreme left at the moment is the overt or tolerated anti-immigration, that borders on xenophobia, all under the guise of "protecting our house prices" or something,
    Doesnt NZ have a CGT?

  13. #28
    State Regular Chewie's Avatar
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    We have a limited CGT which covers the main offenders

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    The joke was that a Negative Income Tax is the exact same thing, just phrased in Milton Friedman's words. Phrasing the Universal Allowance as a "wealth redistribution" policy is not only politically stupid, it's missing out on explaining the legitimate benefits of such a system, and it turns a legitimate policy into bumbling socialist bullshit. Labour did the same thing with the Capital Gains Tax.

    The benefits to a universal allowance would actually be almost libertarian in nature in terms of a) massive cuts in government/buraucracy jobs b) less dependence on a minimum wage.

    Another thing I hate about the extreme left at the moment is the overt or tolerated anti-immigration, that borders on xenophobia, all under the guise of "protecting our house prices" or something,
    I thought caring about protecting house prices and a generally anti-immigrant sentiment was a right-wing thing.
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  15. #30
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    True, but I haven't seen any serious analysis of a UBI that doesn't conclude that - even after eliminating all the inefficiencies of the welfare system - a UBI will require significant tax increases to fund.
    It depends how you frame it. If you'd count paying $15,000 more tax and then getting a $20,000 grant as tax increase, then sure, you're right, but if you factor in that the government isn't really redistributing your money if it's just giving it straight back to you, then there have been quite a few costings done (tbf, maybe not of NZ specifically, I'm not sure on that) which indicate that a UBI or NIT that replaced most of the welfare state would not require an actual increase in the size of the state, or more redistribution.

    Milton Friedman proposed a NIT to make this point by showing it didn't even need to just be thought of in this way but could indeed actually function in that way (people paying more tax than the worth of the grant would just get grant-sized tax cuts instead of actual grants; people less tax than the grant would instead just pay no tax and have their tax deducted from the grant) to try and win over people in his circle, which was what Hendrix was referencing before. The results of a NIT are identical to that of a UBI; it's just framed in a way to not scare away small government advocates.
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    1. Stokes is pretty good
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