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  1. #31
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    I kind of realized that that term is not universal. Has been used in Indian media. It's basically about objectifying / sexy-fying women in media or entertainment industry for pleasure of "male gaze".

    EDIT: Elaborating further, this is somewhat tricky and I struggle to come to terms with this. On one hand, there is talk of complete sexual autonomy of women and their right to choose how they dress up and behave. On the other hand, there is condemnation of excessively sexualized portrayal like the one in the still below from an Indian movie:

    Aren't both of these things axioms of freedom of thought/expression though?

  2. #32
    Cricketer Of The Year ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Aren't both of these things axioms of freedom of thought/expression though?
    I see what you mean. At a personal level I find these portrayals unappealing. But then the actresses have chosen to perform those sequences. And they are not exploited damsels but they command a lot of power and autonomy in their decisions on which acts they want to perform.
    Last edited by ankitj; 26-07-2015 at 12:42 PM.
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    Feminism is the theory, Lesbianism is the practice.

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  4. #34
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    I see what you mean. At a personal level I find these portrayals unappealing. But then the actresses have chosen to perform those sequences. And they are not exploited damsels but they command a lot of power and autonomy in their decisions on which acts they want to perform.
    Yes, this is largely my stance. We must not forget when there will be situations in which women may be manipulated/forced/cajoled into such performances, and these situations are most definitely not "ok". But, as you allude to, in many such instances the woman in question will be acting as an independent and genuinely autonomous agent, and in such circumstances their choices should be respected. Like you, I find such displays unappealing, but to suggest my, or anyone else's, disdain for such things should somehow trump the prudential decision of the participant to take part in revealing photoshoots etc... on the basis that they don't know any better etc... is deeply patronising and dire.
    Last edited by sledger; 26-07-2015 at 11:18 AM.


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    Hall of Fame Member duffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Feminism is the theory, Lesbianism is the practice.

    Actual proper quote from Ti-Grace Atkinson, the radical American feminist who I became acquainted with on the Gender Studies course I took as part of my Sociology degree.
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    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    The problem for mine, is that a lot of the discourse on the topic of equality tends to treat equality as a value in and off itself. I'm not convinced that this is an especially helpful way of framing issues associated with gender/racial/religious divides. A lot of the discussions of the inherent issues focus on equality as something to be promoted and actively pursued, almost as if it is a concept that can be reached out and touched. In my mind, actual equality is more in fact about the absence of direness and horribleness, rather than the presence of positiveness. I fear a lot of initiatives designed to actively positively promote equality, for instance, tend to emphasise the differences between people of different backgrounds etc... rather than play them down.

    I remember as a child, of 4 or 5 years old, the entire school being marched into an assembly to be given presentations on diversity. The aim of this session was obviously not ignoble, but what I very clearly remember from that experience was being told you shouldn't treat someone differntly because of their skin colour. I simply couldn't understand why anyone would do that. I hadn't even entertained the possibility of such a thing. From that point onward I recall there was a considerable increase in incidents regarding the kids of ethnic minority backrounds (not that there were many) being bullied and so on.

    This is obviously purely anecdotal, but it is perhaps reflective of why I'm sceptical of initiatives designed to enhance diversity that have existed to date.
    Last edited by sledger; 26-07-2015 at 11:35 AM.
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    Please post shorter and better posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    In my mind, actual equality is more in fact about the absence of direness and horribleness, rather than the presence of positiveness.
    You underestimate.... THE POWAH OF POSITIVITY??

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogwalker View Post
    Please post shorter and better posts.

    Thanks.
    If all you can do is make snide remarks then it would probably benefit all concerned if you bestowed the fruits of your prodigious wit on someone with the spare time to give them the consideration they doubtless deserve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    You underestimate.... THE POWAH OF POSITIVITY??

    Not at all; I base all of my thoughts regarding cultural sensitivities on WWE programming.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Aren't both of these things axioms of freedom of thought/expression though?
    Movies are structured to satisfy the demands of an audience though. It's likely she's chosen to participate in that because she's getting paid to and not because that's the way she'd most like to be portrayed to get attention. Take away the demand for such things and it won't be included anymore -- the 'problem' is the dominant culture rather than the movie itself. It's obviously fine that she's traded her labour for financial gain but this specific example highlights an objectification of certain people that I think we'd be better off with less of.

    I admit I'm much more concerned with progressing to a society where more interactions are voluntary than the underlying preferences that shape those interactions, and I don't think the law or the state more generally really has any business in trying to manipulate the latter, but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant from the perspective of cultural advancement.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 26-07-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    The problem for mine, is that a lot of the discourse on the topic of equality tends to treat equality as a value in and off itself. I'm not convinced that this is an especially helpful way of framing issues associated with gender/racial/religious divides. A lot of the discussions of the inherent issues focus on equality as something to be promoted and actively pursued, almost as if it is a concept that can be reached out and touched. In my mind, actual equality is more in fact about the absence of direness and horribleness, rather than the presence of positiveness. I fear a lot of initiatives designed to actively positively promote equality, for instance, tend to emphasise the differences between people of different backgrounds etc... rather than play them down.

    I remember as a child, of 4 or 5 years old, the entire school being marched into an assembly to be given presentations on diversity. The aim of this session was obviously not ignoble, but what I very clearly remember from that experience was being told you shouldn't treat someone differntly because of their skin colour. I simply couldn't understand why anyone would do that. I hadn't even entertained the possibility of such a thing. From that point onward I recall there was a considerable increase in incidents regarding the kids of ethnic minority backrounds (not that there were many) being bullied and so on.

    This is obviously purely anecdotal, but it is perhaps reflective of why I'm sceptical of initiatives designed to enhance diversity that have existed to date.
    sledge, It's important to remember that you probably come from a family background of tolerance though leading to you not noticing the difference at all which is not true for a huge chunk of the population wherein children might adopt ingrained racist attitudes unless educated otherwise.
    Last edited by Teja.; 26-07-2015 at 12:17 PM.
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  14. #44
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Yes, a very fair point.

    My concerns about diversity initiatives that have been rolled out and tried to date, however, are based on broader learning experiences etc... That's not necessarily to say I am opposed to initiatives and policies in this vein per se. I'm not. I just have reservations about the form many have taken.
    Last edited by sledger; 26-07-2015 at 02:46 PM.

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    Cricketer Of The Year ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Movies are structured to satisfy the demands of an audience though. It's likely she's chosen to participate in that because she's getting paid to and not because that's the way she'd most like to be portrayed to get attention. Take away the demand for such things and it won't be included anymore -- the 'problem' is the dominant culture rather than the movie itself. It's obviously fine that she's traded her labour for financial gain but this specific example highlights an objectification of certain people that I think we'd be better off with less of.

    I admit I'm much more concerned with progressing to a society where more interactions are voluntary than the underlying preferences that shape those interactions, and I don't think the law or the state more generally really has any business in trying to manipulate the latter, but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant from the perspective of cultural advancement.
    Agree fully. Ideally I would like for demand not to exist for such crass performances. Until then it is difficult to question the choice of actresses. It almost sounds like moral policing, which contradicts with the idea of complete autonomy of women over their bodies. Also to reiterate the actresses for most part are under no pressure or financial need to perform these acts. Some actresses do actually refuse to do any such dance performances. The ones that don't, don't necessarily have a view on whether they would like such portrayal.

    To be clear also, the "male gaze" charge is not limited to these sort of acts alone. This artistic but sensual act too got condemned by some Feminists (though they were divided) recently for catering to male gaze: https://youtu.be/Ff82XtV78xo (has English subtitles, so go ahead and watch it)
    Last edited by ankitj; 26-07-2015 at 01:23 PM.

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