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  1. #811
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    ^This is of course not to say Muslims are not victims in Myanmar. They are amongst the worst persecuted groups in the world and Myanmar should be held accountable by even things such as sanctions.
    RIP Phil Hughes. Forever 63*

  2. #812
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Now I don't know what to do about it, but absolving the religion from the same scrutiny we're so good at laying on other Abrahamic religions is certainly not a good idea.
    That kind of is the hard part. But I have always believed that if you mainstream criticism of Islam, you will over few generations see radical strands becoming less and less prominent and Islam might start enjoying the kind of image that Victor Ian wants it to have.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    That kind of is the hard part. But I have always believed that if you mainstream criticism of Islam, you will over few generations see radical strands becoming less and less prominent and Islam might start enjoying the kind of image that Victor Ian wants it to have.
    The problem is people don't want to do it because you will at best have to live the rest of your life in the presence of armed security.

    If that's not an indication that there's a problem...
    Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

    Too many bones, not enough CASH!!

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    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    Wow, I didn't know my comments on times of india comments section would draw out such a lengthy discussion
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta


  5. #815
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Wow, I didn't know my comments on times of india comments section would draw out such a lengthy discussion
    the fulcrum of history tbh
    citoyens, vouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?

  6. #816
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Is this your personal view/your personal view of the consensus view or has any top Islamic leader(s)/scholar(s) talked about this?

    Essentially, I see you as arguing that individual Muslims acting as per their own belief, including the belief that other Muslims are wrong not to act, are not following Islam but a perverted version. Would that be accurate?

    If so, as per you, are there any individual actions against the will of the top and the majority that are not perversions of Islam?
    Regarding views from the top, go read the condemnations of acts of terrorist organizations signed by hundreds of world leaders, imams and scholars.
    Everything I have ever read regarding retribution is always weighed more heavily on the act of forgiveness and avoidance. That is better. There have been many aspects creep into Islam that are cultural, rather than Islamic. The absolute authority is the Quran. Any ruling that conflicts with this is questionable. Speaking in absolutes is likely a sign you are missing something. Inciting potential wars without first consulting with all the potential victims and gaining consent is likely indicative you have missed something. I'll happily say the vast majority of Islamic view agrees with this, evidenced by the fact practically all Muslim leaders denounce these acts time and again.
    Islam does not prohibit war, but when war is undertaken there are clear guidelines for what is acceptable. Sure, individuals in war always overstep the bounds, but no one condones this.
    Before concluding that Islam promotes violence against infidels, the accuser should read the Quran. They rarely do, preferring google soundbites that support their preset views.
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  7. #817
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    That kind of is the hard part. But I have always believed that if you mainstream criticism of Islam, you will over few generations see radical strands becoming less and less prominent and Islam might start enjoying the kind of image that Victor Ian wants it to have.
    This I hope for. There is a lot of wrong that has crept into Islam. A lot of Muslim's turn the other way in confusion over acts they feel are caused by other acts. This is not Islam! Two wrongs don't make a right and we must call out wrong, even in our own households. Perhaps I misunderstand your 'mainstream criticism of Islam' line. I'm all for criticising the backward things that have crept in, like treatment of females, acts of war without honour, double standards, etc. Yes... Call them out! Just don't call them Islam. They aren't.

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Ian View Post
    I have little idea of the political situation in Kashmir. But when talking about ideologies, here is the danger. Too many people will try to draw conclusions based upon false ideas. It is not Islamic ideology to fight infidels, any more than it is any other systems ideology. No one should sit back and invite oppression and tyranny. The sad reality is that being passive invites oppression and tyranny. However, there are better, less destructive means to fight it. Aggression is always the last resort to acts of tyranny and oppression. That is Islamic ideology for you. Problems? I'd imagine not. Aggression should be ceased the moment the oppressors or tyrants ask for it to stop, and they themselves stop perpetrating tyranny and oppression. Once again, that is Islamic ideology for you - it pretty much mirrors the rules of engagement in the west, or should that be the other way around, since the West came after Islam.
    However, all of this is besides the point. The problem here is not Islamic Ideology. Rather it is poor education. If only the perpetrator realised that an act of suicide does not get him into heaven - It is pretty well stated - I don't know how these people ever miss it. If only they knew that harming any non combatant bars your entry to heaven. Again pretty well stated - Again I am at a loss to how they miss it. How does anyone claim to be going to heaven? That is completely unislamic. A Muslim has equal hope of going to heaven and fear of not getting there. It is pretty well understood that claiming the right of Allah (judgement) is a sure path to expulsion from his favour.
    These people are NOT following Islamic ideology. And rest assured, The Islamic community does not condone them - quite the opposite - even though it is rarely reported on. Somehow, these people fall through the nets. I'd suggest they fall through the nets of real Islamic education, because they are not seeking Islam. They are seeking revenge, they are festering hate, and they look around until they find parasites with similar hate that prey upon them to go do their horrible deeds. Questioning Islamic ideology will never lead to results because it quite obviously does not teach any of the typical moronic claims that are thrown at it. Some wont want to accept that this is not Islamic ideology. Once again, this is a problem of education and a willingness to hate rather than look deeper.

    Islam is no worse than other religions. Didn't Krishna and Aravinda wage a huge war against their enemies? Is this what a Hindu should aspire to? Didn't the Christians lead Crusades over and over again killing huge amounts of people? Haven't the secular governments of the world killed magnitudes more people than all religions throughout history combined? Don't fall into the trap of laying blame as your terms of consolation. Hate the piece of **** who blew up innocent people, but don't hate the people he came from. Don't believe your pathetic politicians and newspapers who see every action of conflict as yet another opportunity to increase sales and votes from the ignorant masses. By all means attack radical Islamic ideals. We Muslims are doing this all the time.

    Sorry for the spiel, but this is the kind of thing that infuriates me - that a couple of ignoramuses can have erroneous aspersions cast over more than a billion people who are peace loving, as per their ideology. I truly am sorry for those innocent deaths. I would love to live in a world where this never happened.
    It was Arjuna haha. Krishna gave him a big spiel about how you've just got to go ahead and do whatever **** needs to be done without thinking too much about the consequences.

    The Mahabharata Arjuna didn't walk singles as far as I know.
    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Chix love a man with a checkered posting history.

  9. #819
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Oops. Clearly DeSilva had a big impact on me. Won a one man war on Australia in 96.

  10. #820
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Ian View Post
    Regarding views from the top, go read the condemnations of acts of terrorist organizations signed by hundreds of world leaders, imams and scholars.
    Everything I have ever read regarding retribution is always weighed more heavily on the act of forgiveness and avoidance. That is better. There have been many aspects creep into Islam that are cultural, rather than Islamic. The absolute authority is the Quran. Any ruling that conflicts with this is questionable. Speaking in absolutes is likely a sign you are missing something. Inciting potential wars without first consulting with all the potential victims and gaining consent is likely indicative you have missed something. I'll happily say the vast majority of Islamic view agrees with this, evidenced by the fact practically all Muslim leaders denounce these acts time and again.
    Islam does not prohibit war, but when war is undertaken there are clear guidelines for what is acceptable. Sure, individuals in war always overstep the bounds, but no one condones this.
    Before concluding that Islam promotes violence against infidels, the accuser should read the Quran. They rarely do, preferring google soundbites that support their preset views.
    So, the top authority is Quran, according to you, and not the state/government, right?

    And, if someone interprets the Quran differently than you in this regard, he is following a perverted version of Islam. If what someone takes from the Quran is that, when dealing with infidels, lesser weightage is to be put on forgiveness and avoidance, and more on violent actions, then he is following a perverted version of Islam. If that someone then teaches other Muslims his interpretation and they act as he says, they are following a perverted version of Islam. Even if he is an imam or a scholar.

    Is religion static or is it dynamic? Is it to be judged on just what its book says (the most charitable interpretations)? Is it to be judged by how well it has evolved to co-exist with contemporary values or not? If the top authority is the Quran, then why should any state/government be comfortable having Muslims propagate under it?
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 18-02-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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  11. #821
    International Captain andmark's Avatar
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    ****posters (almost literally) have been having fun with Google over this, making searches of "toilet paper" come up with the Pakistan flag. Petty, nationalistic and stupid but creative in its way.
    Last edited by andmark; 18-02-2019 at 09:23 AM.
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  12. #822
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    So, the top authority is Quran, according to you, and not the state/government, right?
    The top authority is the Quran. But that is a book. The ruler of the Muslims (that is the state in this modern world), is to be obeyed and so long as the law does not compel Muslims to abandon Islam, they have legitimate authority over Muslims.


    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    And, if someone interprets the Quran differently than you in this regard, he is following a perverted version of Islam. If what someone takes from the Quran is that, when dealing with infidels, lesser weightage is to be put on forgiveness and avoidance, and more on violent actions, then he is following a perverted version of Islam. If that someone then teaches other Muslims his interpretation and they act as he says, they are following a perverted version of Islam. Even if he is an imam or a scholar.
    There are many Imams out there who have a wrong view of certain issues. I can say that confidently. Take those in Pakistan who condone honour killings. This very idea is condemned in Islam. There are those who condone the killing of an apostate. The Quran clearly states their is no compulsion in religion. The prophet never had anyone killed for apostasy. In the cases where someone was sentenced to death it was for crimes where the punishment was the death penalty. The death penalty is in the Quran, but not without many means to be avoided and only as a last resort. Saudi Arabia banned women from driving, yet women rode horses back in the day. Clearly some Imams confuse their people by letting personal opinion and culture guide them rather than their book.

    Likewise their are leaders who impose their warmongering views upon certain peoples. These people never have the vote of the population. They create their own separate entities, only composed of those who agree with them. That is not legitimate rule. In religious circles, that is cultish. In political circles, that is separatist. Look at how ISIS treats those who have entered the fold and then try to leave after becoming disillusioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Is religion static or is it dynamic?
    The message/teaching is static. The implementation of it by people is dynamic. It shows how to behave in times of peace, and it shows how to behave in times of war. It shows how to have strong faith in God that is built upon logic rather than blindness.

    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Is it to be judged on just what its book says (the most charitable interpretations)?
    How should you judge the Quran? You should read it and then decide for yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Is it to be judged by how well it has evolved to co-exist with contemporary values or not?
    Contemporary values are nothing special. They are fashion. They will change over and over. Core good values, such as the golden rule, respect and love of people and humility are the core of great societies. Laws are only needed for those who don't have these qualities. Read the Quran and you will find that this is it's core message to humanity - when it is not teaching them about the nature of God and other things metaphysical.


    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    If the top authority is the Quran, then why should any state/government be comfortable having Muslims propagate under it?
    Not sure what you are saying here. But any reasonable government would not have a problem with ruling over people who follow the Quran, if they did so earnestly. They would not steal. They would not wrong others. They would not give false testimony. They would not be free loaders. They would not be drug addicts. They would help their fellow citizens. They would contribute in government and follow it's laws. Any government that is a tyranny would not like Muslims in it's population, just as they would not like conscientious non Muslims. Any government that wishes to promote things against human decency would not like to have Muslims in it's population. Any government that wishes to dominate it's neighbours would not like to have Muslims in it's population. Any government that does not allow freedom of religion would not like Muslims in it's population - except a Muslim one with Muslims who do not understand what 'no compulsion in religion' means.

  13. #823
    International Regular Victor Ian's Avatar
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    maybe time to resurrect religion page? I don't want to sidetrack

  14. #824
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Excellent responses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Now I don't know what to do about it, but absolving the religion from the same scrutiny we're so good at laying on other Abrahamic religions (or even secular ideologies like Nationalism) is certainly not a good idea.
    I'm sorry but what scrutiny are we so good at laying on other Abrahamic religions? And in the actual context, what scrutiny are we so good at laying on Buddhism and Hinduism?

    You're acting as if Islam gets a bizarre special protectorate. How have you come to this conclusion?
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