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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #14431
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    The political Left has Hollywood in its pocket so it has a ready made publicity machine pushing its agenda.

    Milo is merely following suit and attempting (succeeding?) to generate the same sort of publicity and air-play. It's all about wrestling the media over to the Right and tranforming the zeitgeist. That's why he seems 'inflammatory', although he isn't in reality. He is only 'infammatory' in relative terms because the Left is borderline extreme and doesn't know it.
    Dude literally said his intention was to get banned from Twitter, and he did. how is that not inflammatory? edit: after harassing an actor continuously as well.
    Last edited by NZTailender; 02-02-2017 at 07:48 PM.
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  2. #14432
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    Yep, it was, however timid that girl seemed, a memorial-type service for 50 LGBT people getting gunned down is NOT a time to be an opportunist and start pushing your own agenda.

    Jeez, just imagine a gay person doing that in a memorial meeting of 50 black teens getting shot down in an attack aimed specifically at black people (as Orlando was aimed at LGBTs) & then claiming that some of the 50 blacks were gay. We both know what outrage would follow.

    You could tell many sections of that crowd were very offended and uncomfortable with what unfolded, but to answer your question about the lack of yelling and screaming, I think that highlights the current environment out there where people have been conditioned NOT to criticise these far left groups because it's seem unfashionable and bigoted to do so. You could tell by the sighs many felt in was total inappropriate and opportunistic.
    I meant the lack of yelling and screaming from her. She was simply trying to make a point. You can argue about time and place and the substance of her point, but you can't argue that she was being somehow disruptive or discourteous with it.

    In any case, it is very clearly not the worst reaction to Orlando, a prize which goes quite clearly with the several admittedly very marginal pastors who cheered it because they hate gay people that ****ing much.
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  3. #14433
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niall View Post
    I was on stormfront a few months ago (don't ask, someone on another forum linked to it),

    And well my reaction is they really really hate him. They didn't seem to be fan of Jews and Gays in general tbh.

    Surely those "interesting citizens" would be a pretty decent representative of white supremasists?
    Huh, fair enough. I know the that the Venn diagram of "twitter frog brigade", "people who had Je Suis Milo as their handle" and "people who like tweeting pictures of ovens at Jews" is close to being a set of concentric circles though.
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  4. #14434
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I meant the lack of yelling and screaming from her. She was simply trying to make a point. You can argue about time and place and the substance of her point, but you can't argue that she was being somehow disruptive or discourteous with it.

    In any case, it is very clearly not the worst reaction to Orlando, a prize which goes quite clearly with the several admittedly very marginal pastors who cheered it because they hate gay people that ****ing much.
    Are you serious?

    Let's flip the example around to the hypothetical I posed above.... 50 young blacks are targeted in a mass shooting, they have a public memorial like this, and a representative from the LGBT stands up and timidly or non-aggressively (if you want to say that), & starts pushing their LGBT agenda. There would be utter outrage.

    I get by default, you tend to be a left sympathiser & I tend not to be so much, but jeez, can we not be honest about some of these things? Whether she was trying to be courteous with her message or not, it was totally in bad taste & I think deep down you know it.


  5. #14435
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Ayaan Ali has made a lot of claims about her past and she is a proven liar.

    You might consider Iran an oppressive regime, I don't think that about Pakistan. My family didn't move away because of that, it was due to my dad applying for a job in the UK as Doctor through legal channels, and we visit every year.

    Pakistan has a lot of issues including extremism but it's not as bad as how it is depicted in the media. There are a lot of freedoms. My female cousins for example are free to go out on their own and without any head coverings.

    I guess we will see Trumps policies and if he takes away any rights for muslims, such as a ban against the hijab, etc. And what his foreign policy is towards Muslim countries.
    I didn't know she lied mate. Apparently it is about her lying on her refugee form and the circumstances surrounding her family. It's not nice, but as someone who deals with immigration law and applications I know a tonne of refugees have lied or elaborated so that they get asylum. Has she lied about being circumcised too? Would just be really weird.

    I am not a fan of the immigration ban because I think it is slippery slope but I can't get riled up about it for now because it is rather benign and to an extent justifiable. The minute I see this administration go that step further I will be criticising them alongside you and anyone here. For example, I am against a niqab ban and don't think it is in any way, shape or form, justifiable.

    At this point I am at a post-rhetoric stage of my life where I am not going to jump the gun because of nonsensical guilty-by-association or smear campaigns. If we wanted to do that we could **** on any President in living memory. Obama isn't seen as racist towards muslims but he's bombed and killed plenty of them. I am only looking for concrete actions. Cheers for the exchange, it was pleasantly civil and I appreciate you not trying to exaggerate or misrepresent my replies.
    Last edited by Ikki; 02-02-2017 at 09:18 PM.
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  6. #14436
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Generally agree with this. And it's also important to distinguish with who is inviting and how someone gets to speak. not talking about this instance, but professors and lecturers inviting someone to speak 'officially' is different to, say, student groups petitioning and booking out rooms for someone to speak, but I think sometimes these facts get glossed over at times. I would say someone with Milo's stances should have an opportunity to speak, for sake of hearing them and their point of view, but the way Milo presents himself is just inflammatory and he's repeatedly stated his intentions which is to troll and that's his thing. It's pretty sad that he got what he wanted, because he wants to be famous more than anything else. Similarly, if you were to have BLM spokesman to speak, the same standards should apply.

    but also, just because someone has a view point, doesn't mean they deserve a platform. They can use their own platforms - that's freedom of speech - but that doesn't mean they're entitled to other platforms. Same goes for any leftist extremists, too.
    Honestly, it makes no difference. Colleges 'officially' invite celebrities often to talk about their life. Ultimately, it is a place for information and regardless of the official nature of the invitation (and the students setting up talks is just as legitimate), people are there to learn. Milo getting to talk there is just as important as any other scientist getting up there and talking. The protests against him have actually demonstrated the imperative of him continuing this work: to not be silenced by what are essentially freedom of speech terrorists.

    People are too warped up in playing sides and reacting to that threat instead of actually destroying poor ideas with logic. It is the very anti-thesis of the spirit of the country and actions like these will just rile up the right and alienate many moderate liberals against them. Unfortunately, playing identity politics for so long, appealing to emotion and people's sensitivity, have made these people intellectually weak (emotionally weak too as a consequence) in terms of debating these ideas and people like Milo, Shapiro, and many others have exposed this to the point that even the average joe can now spot the difference between genuine outrage and someone who is overly sensitive because their views are being challenged. Simply put, these people progressively have a lack of care about whether you are outraged and are more interested in what you are actually saying.
    Last edited by Ikki; 02-02-2017 at 09:37 PM.
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  7. #14437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Honestly, it makes no difference. Colleges 'officially' invite celebrities often to talk about their life. Ultimately, it is a place for information and regardless of the official nature of the invitation (and the students setting up talks is just as legitimate), people are there to learn. Milo getting to talk there is just as important as any other scientist getting up there and talking. The protests against him have actually demonstrated the imperative of him continuing this work: to not be silenced by what are essentially freedom of speech terrorists.

    People are too warped up in playing sides and reacting to that threat instead of actually destroying poor ideas with logic. It is the very anti-thesis of the spirit of the country and actions like these will just rile up the right and alienate many moderate liberals against them. Unfortunately, playing identity politics for so long, appealing to emotion and people's sensitivity, have made these people intellectually weak (emotionally weak too as a consequence) in terms of debating these ideas and people like Milo, Shapiro, and many others have exposed this to the point that even the average joe can now spot the difference between genuine outrage and someone who is overly sensitive because their views are being challenged. Simply put, these people progressively have a lack of care about whether you are outraged and are more interested in what you are actually saying.
    What's he a scientist of?
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  8. #14438
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    What's he a scientist of?
    I think if you asked him he'd say something provocative like he is a scientist of penises

    My bad, it should say "any scientist".

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  10. #14440
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Generally agree with this. And it's also important to distinguish with who is inviting and how someone gets to speak. not talking about this instance, but professors and lecturers inviting someone to speak 'officially' is different to, say, student groups petitioning and booking out rooms for someone to speak, but I think sometimes these facts get glossed over at times. I would say someone with Milo's stances should have an opportunity to speak, for sake of hearing them and their point of view, but the way Milo presents himself is just inflammatory and he's repeatedly stated his intentions which is to troll and that's his thing. It's pretty sad that he got what he wanted, because he wants to be famous more than anything else. Similarly, if you were to have BLM spokesman to speak, the same standards should apply.

    but also, just because someone has a view point, doesn't mean they deserve a platform. They can use their own platforms - that's freedom of speech - but that doesn't mean they're entitled to other platforms. Same goes for any leftist extremists, too.
    I tend to agree with most of this & I'm certainly not a fan of Milo when he goes over the top purely for trolling purposes. However if you really strip his arguments back, he's not fundamentally arguing anything all that radical or extreme, but does so in a smug trolling way for sensationalism and what he thinks is humour.

    On the point on being entitled to a platform, It's my personal opinion that any university/college worth it's salt, public or private, should allow a platform for speakers evenly across the political spectrum. I don't think that means 7 separate left groups and 1 semi conservative one, but obviously if they're not govt funded, they can do what they please.

    What bothers me about the current college campus culture, (and believe it or not it's even worse in some parts of Canada), is young liberals are sort of conditioned with this belief that they can react violently to & obstruct the rights of others to speak, as opposed to peaceful protest, followed by replying with more & better speech, which of course discourse in the USA is supposed to be all about.
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  11. #14441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    I tend to agree with most of this & I'm certainly not a fan of Milo when he goes over the top purely for trolling purposes. However if you really strip his arguments back, he's not fundamentally arguing anything all that radical or extreme, but does so in a smug trolling way for sensationalism and what he thinks is humour.

    On the point on being entitled to a platform, It's my personal opinion that any university/college worth it's salt, public or private, should allow a platform for speakers evenly across the political spectrum. I don't think that means 7 separate left groups and 1 semi conservative one, but obviously if they're not govt funded, they can do what they please.

    What bothers me about the current college campus culture, (and believe it or not it's even worse in some parts of Canada), is young liberals are sort of conditioned with this belief that they can react violently to & obstruct the rights of others to speak, as opposed to peaceful protest, followed by replying with more & better speech, which of course discourse in the USA is supposed to be all about.
    I agree. University is all about forcing yourself to challenge your own views, and people will be better prepared to face the real world and become more rounded individuals, if they haven't been confined to just their "safe spaces". It is better if all ideas are out in the open and debated ruthlessly for what they are, no matter how abhorrent they may sound.

    Sure I can understand rape victims etc. feeling the need for emotional protection if a speaker is aggressively anti-feminist, or bigoted in general, but the way to make their point heard would be to peacefully protest, not prevent them from speaking through arson, violence etc.
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  12. #14442
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    So what we are all doing here is comparing groups of people, LGBT, Black, Woman, Muslim who would like to not have their rights infringed and limited and treated like second class citizens. Who historically have had these rights, well, limited and being treated like 2nd class citizens; even when constitutionally they not meant to be treated as such. Versus a group whom blame all their worldly problems on these peoples wishes to have these freedoms; Most of the 'rights' views are treated as if they are having their rights erroded when actually what they are arguing about is whether these other people should have their rights limited. And whats worse is most of these views are not depicted in provable facts but in religious dogma and internal self-belief of being correct. When you look at the issues on the table here, from the immigration policy (which is largely based on ethnicity and religion) to closing down abortion clinics to treating scientist and researches as people who make things up randomly.... Oh yes this is all about having everybody`s views heard equally, but all these views are not equal footing!
    Last edited by StephenZA; 02-02-2017 at 11:18 PM.
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  14. #14444
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    Quote Originally Posted by stphndbsn View Post
    So what we are all doing here is comparing groups of people, LGBT, Black, Woman, Muslim who would like to not have their rights infringed and limited and treated like second class citizens. Who historically have had these rights, well, limited and being treated like 2nd class citizens; even when constitutionally they not meant to be treated as such. Versus a group whom blame all their worldly problems on these peoples wishes to have these freedoms; Most of the 'rights' views are treated as if they are having their rights erroded when actually what they are arguing about is whether these other people should have their rights limited. And whats worse is most of these views are not depicted in provable facts but in religious dogma and internal self-belief of being correct. When you look at the issues on the table here, from the immigration policy (which is largely based on ethnicity and religion) to closing down abortion clinics to treating scientist and researches as people who make things up randomly.... Oh yes this is all about having everybody`s views heard equally, but all these views are not equal footing!
    It isn't fun. Many of the Alt-Right generally hold despicable views, or endorse people with such views even though they may hold back from expressing them directly. Responding with force and violence to shut them down only makes them the martyrs though.

    Depressing, isn't it?

  15. #14445
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Honestly, it makes no difference. Colleges 'officially' invite celebrities often to talk about their life. Ultimately, it is a place for information and regardless of the official nature of the invitation (and the students setting up talks is just as legitimate), people are there to learn. Milo getting to talk there is just as important as any other scientist getting up there and talking. The protests against him have actually demonstrated the imperative of him continuing this work: to not be silenced by what are essentially freedom of speech terrorists.

    People are too warped up in playing sides and reacting to that threat instead of actually destroying poor ideas with logic. It is the very anti-thesis of the spirit of the country and actions like these will just rile up the right and alienate many moderate liberals against them. Unfortunately, playing identity politics for so long, appealing to emotion and people's sensitivity, have made these people intellectually weak (emotionally weak too as a consequence) in terms of debating these ideas and people like Milo, Shapiro, and many others have exposed this to the point that even the average joe can now spot the difference between genuine outrage and someone who is overly sensitive because their views are being challenged. Simply put, these people progressively have a lack of care about whether you are outraged and are more interested in what you are actually saying.
    People ARE allowed to protest though, and I don't think the initial protest was designed to silence him and stop him talking, but to protest his views, etc. He was invited to talk by campus Republicans, with all spaces to hear him talk taken up. 1500ish people started to protest peacefully. It wasn't until anarchists showed up and being ****wits that the security decided to call the whole thing off. Have you ever been to a protest that remains peaceful? It pretty much never gets news coverage, and the person or people being protested rarely go "oh ****, a whole bunch of people peacefully protesting - I better stop now because I'm being silenced!" The only time a protest I've been at that got news coverage (beyond student magazine) was when an anarchist showed up (literally one) and ran at the car of the Prime Minister and yelled abuse at him. What did they show on the news? Not footage of over an hour of non-controversial protest in an area designated by police, but one anarchist screaming at the PM. If the protest against Milo hadn't turned violent, do you really think there'd be coverage of 1500-ish people peacefully protesting?

    Also, in general, I think you're genuinely undervaluing how sensitive people are too being completely and utterly ignored and pushed to the margins of society, because they've been invisible to general society in both laws and in representation, for - in a lot of cases - forever. Can this result in over-sensitivity and jumping the gun at times? Yes. But I don't think that's an unnatural human reaction when, after a long time, people finally have a platform to talk about themselves, their community and their identity, and then other people want to go back a few decades and take that away from them. But that human reaction is not a million miles away from the alienated people on the middle-right who have felt ignored or the target of 'abuse' by the left. In a lot of ways, they have a lot in common, but it's a misnomer to think that only one side is not willing to hear the other and try and understand what they're about.
    Shri, straw man and Bahnz like this.



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