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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #1021
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    See, this is where I was going with the padded walls comment, because if you start to regulate it is inevitably an argument over degrees and your line in the sand is as subjective as mine - but both are intrusive and unnecessary.

    People still get sick under the health regulations and the department of health sending people every so often to check. The only way to guarantee - and even then you can't literally guarantee it - is to have public officers working in kitchens everyday. As I told you before in this thread and under a different topic; you can't legislate out harm.

    Addressing how many people got sick at one restaurant is not really an issue here. If they make enough sick they close down. It's just too simple. As a restauranteur, I am less concerned with keeping my kitchen clean - that is rather simple - than customers giving me a good or bad rep. That's how important it is - do you actually think a restaurant will survive making customers ill or providing bad service? Especially these days where it costs so damn much to own a restaurant.

    It's just not the reality mate. Ironically, without a public body people will be more concerned with where they eat, will check out reviews and awards garnered and in expectance of that restaurants will also improve to fullfil those wants.
    That's not real world. Just a utopian dream you have. Customer service is very important to restaurant but good rep can be earned in so many ways not just through word of mouth which is what you seemed to think. I subscribe to libertarian views but it will take very loooo...ng time for humanity to be understanding, co-operative and competitive without harming each other.

  2. #1022
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    Sort of like saying you can't stop all crime, therefore you shouldn't have the police at all.
    That's non-sense. Libertarianism =/= anarchy. That example is also not a good analogy to compare to the free market ideals I am putting forth which are a self-serving regulatory mechanism.

    Quote Originally Posted by L Trumper View Post
    That's not real world. Just a utopian dream you have. Customer service is very important to restaurant but good rep can be earned in so many ways not just through word of mouth which is what you seemed to think. I subscribe to libertarian views but it will take very loooo...ng time for humanity to be understanding, co-operative and competitive without harming each other.
    Not so, the opposite is true. That people have to make responsible choices on a daily basis. As I said, especially with regards to food businesses, there already are private initiatives which rate and regulate. People would just be more dependant on them, and that's fine. If they want to eat out, it is on them to pay for that privilege and not others to subsidise it.

    TBF it doesn't even have to be a responsible choice. They can eat out for the specific reason of poisoning themselves if that is what they want. People can be nuts; as long they are harming themselves, and not others, that is their prerogative.
    Last edited by Ikki; 21-04-2012 at 03:58 AM.
    ★★★★★

  3. #1023
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Should try it sometime.
    citoyens, vouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?

  4. #1024
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    The irony. A show full of fake people and events...about as fake as the real world you purport should/does exist.

    If you want to have an intelligent discussion we can. When we were discussing FDA regulation I gave you the respect to address your points. I didn't take you for a troll.
    Last edited by Ikki; 21-04-2012 at 06:06 AM.


  5. #1025
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    So..anyway...this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the Department of Energy.
    I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then, I brushed my teeth with that water, filtered to standards set by the Environmental Standards Agency.

    After that, I turned on the TV to one of the Ofcom regulated channels to see what the Met Office determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of Food Standards Agency inspected food and taking medication which has been determined as safe by the NHS.

    At the appropriate time as regulated by the UK Parliament and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, I got into my Road Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the Department of Transport and the Highways Agency, stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued and printed by the Bank of England, making sure I keep an eye out for all of the children who are currently enjoying their Easter holidays from State Schools. On the way out the door I deposited my mail in a postbox to be sent out via the Royal Mail Postal Service.

    I parked my car on the street, paved and maintained by the Department of Transport, and put my spare change issued by the Bank of England into the parking meter.

    Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labour and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drove back to my house which had not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which had not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police force.
    Last edited by sledger; 21-04-2012 at 10:14 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #1026
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    moocher

  7. #1027
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    I'll reply to that later, right now I'm too busy using the Internet which was developed by the Defence Advanced Research Projects Administration to post on freerepublic forums about how the government can't do anything right.

  8. #1028
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Phenomenal post.



    Edit: spark's i mean

  9. #1029
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I'll reply to that later, right now I'm too busy using the Internet which was developed by the Defence Advanced Research Projects Administration to post on freerepublic forums about how the government can't do anything right.
    TBF you're also using the World Wide Web to do so, which was developed at the Council for European Nuclear Research... a multi-government initiative costing taxpayers dozens of billions of Euros a year at little marketable immediate benefit. Can't well sell Higgs Bosons in boxes, of course.

    ---

    I mean in the end it's the idea that public health should be reactive which so appalls me. I guess it's good economics though - hospitals and morgues will make a killing.

  10. #1030
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, no doubt, would also be wise not to forget that the WWW is also totally reliant on the effective coordination of Internet Protocol Spaces and top-level Domain Name Space, all of which is overseen by ICANN.

  11. #1031
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    So..anyway...this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the Department of Energy.
    I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then, I brushed my teeth with that water, filtered to standards set by the Environmental Standards Agency.

    After that, I turned on the TV to one of the Ofcom regulated channels to see what the Met Office determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of Food Standards Agency inspected food and taking medication which has been determined as safe by the NHS.

    At the appropriate time as regulated by the UK Parliament and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, I got into my Road Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the Department of Transport and the Highways Agency, stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued and printed by the Bank of England, making sure I keep an eye out for all of the children who are currently enjoying their Easter holidays from State Schools. On the way out the door I deposited my mail in a postbox to be sent out via the Royal Mail Postal Service.

    I parked my car on the street, paved and maintained by the Department of Transport, and put my spare change issued by the Bank of England into the parking meter.

    Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drove back to my house which had not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which had not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
    Awesome.

  12. #1032
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I'll reply to that later, right now I'm too busy using the Internet which was developed by the Defence Advanced Research Projects Administration to post on freerepublic forums about how the government can't do anything right.
    Next you'll tell me Meucci or Bell invented the phone - a precurser to the internet - because the government told them to. Or that Zuckerburg was on order from the President that he wanted an improved version of myspace so people could view his pics better. Or that Ford built the car because he was regulated towards that technology. One of the biggest causes to advance human history is the drop in oil Rockefeller caused to occur. Do you think he did it other than out of his own self-interest? Yet it helped spur enterprise and an advancement on capital.

    This isn't an argument you can win. If I were to list the number of private initiatives compared to the public ones...yeah, History doesn't side with you. None of the things you listed had to owe something to the government in order to exist. And none of them need the government to exist. Not that I am advocating anarchy. Your argument is akin to saying that as long as someone is told to do something they will do it. It's non sense.

    It is human ingenuity and that alone that matters. The government didn't do anything, people did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I mean in the end it's the idea that public health should be reactive which so appalls me. I guess it's good economics though - hospitals and morgues will make a killing.
    It's the reality that everything that comes at a cost that should concern you. Even looking after people. For every increase in cost you may get a better outcome. But resources are finite and wants and needs of the world have to balance with what is most wanted and desired and for those that are most willing to pay it. This is the economic problem and this is best answered by a free market. Not one subsidised or manipulated - even for the best of intentions.

    In the end, you want efficiency and you want quality at a lower cost. Again, history doesn't side with you. You can cling to your ideology but it doesn't dispel the truth. The idea that a few people working in a bureaucracy can preemptively know and consequently plan for the needs and desires of an entire nation is the stuff of make believe. Might as well believe Santa Claus exists or the Easter Bunny. Even if they were the most well intentioned and intelligent people on Earth, they can not possibly achieve their goal.

    But it's your last sentence that is disturbing. For after being spoonfed information you still can't see the woods for the trees. Why would people keep dying if people did not regulate food standards? Hello, there are tortuous and criminal charges that already exist as a deterrent. Nevermind the free market you clearly fail to grasp.
    Last edited by Ikki; 21-04-2012 at 11:12 AM.

  13. #1033
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    None of the things you listed had to owe something to the government in order to exist. And none of them need the government to exist. Not that I am advocating anarchy
    I believe there are a lot of merits in a libertarian approach to certain things to be honest, but you seem to take it to impossibly exaggerated levels. I very much doubt your mind can be changed, so this isn't really a debate I'm interested in continuing. But with regards to the bit I've quoted, this is complete head in the clouds talk.

    Seeya.

  14. #1034
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I believe there are a lot of merits in a libertarian approach to certain things to be honest, but you seem to take it to impossibly exaggerated levels. I very much doubt your mind can be changed, so this isn't really a debate I'm interested in continuing. But with regards to the bit I've quoted, this is complete head in the clouds talk.

    Seeya.
    There is absolutely nothing exaggerated about the measures I propose. If anything, they're a mere reflection of how indoctrinated some of the core beliefs of people are with regards to the role of government. Moreover, they existed at one point in time; which is the funny thing. Either argue the point to it's logical end, or don't get involved if you can't. It is really that simple.

    As I said, with regards to your own points; they're just too easy to shoot down. And, TBF, these discussions are nothing new and your answers, with all due respect, are somewhat facile. So I ask again, what about it is head in the clouds talk?

    This is a subject that crosses history, law and legal theory, economics and economic theory, and I am prepared to argue the case. I do not think of myself as an authority but I feel knowledgable enough to put forth the arguments nonetheless.
    Last edited by Ikki; 21-04-2012 at 11:11 AM.

  15. #1035
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    This must be how other people feel when they read my posts on the matter.
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