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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #7501
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    more than the creepiness of the reference, the implication was that they wanted him to be an authoritarian leader, it didn't sound like they are looking for democracy under trump, "regime" was another word used by someone...
    Honestly more and more it seems like all sides just want a dictator who agrees with them.
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    People want to legislate the way they think the world should be without recognising the fact that not everyone agrees the world should be a certain way and it has caused resentment on all sides. They can't live how they want so they will utilise violence through a democracy. It's probably a little bit inevitable and particularly with the internet it has sped up the fascism.
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  3. #7503
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    People want to legislate the way they think the world should be without recognising the fact that not everyone agrees the world should be a certain way and it has caused resentment on all sides. They can't live how they want so they will utilise violence through a democracy. It's probably a little bit inevitable and particularly with the internet it has sped up the fascism.
    Everyone recognizes this. Stop condescending.

  4. #7504
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    Lol at trump Criticizing a grieving mother lol to the power of 100 you couldn't script that
    Lol to him complaining about conflicts with the nfl when I understand it is on three days a week.
    Lol to him stating he got a letter from the nfl asking him to change the date of the debates and the nfl denying they sent such a letter.

    This election is comedy gold.


  5. #7505
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Everyone recognizes this. Stop condescending.
    I think they would consciously say they do, yet they act in a way that clearly doesn't recognise it - certainly when it comes to legislating or governing. The opposing side is characterised as stupid or prejudiced. Maybe respect, rather than recognise, is the better word. People want respect for their own views but show a severe lack of it for others.
    Last edited by Ikki; 01-08-2016 at 12:47 AM.
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  6. #7506
    Dan
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    Nice in theory, Ikki, but how far does that 'respect' have to extend?

    Do we 'respect' "All Mexicans are rapists"?
    Do we 'respect' the KKK?
    Should we take the Socialist Alternative seriously?
    Should one respect the principled stance of ISIS, even if they disagree with it and their actions?

    I think it becomes awfully dangerous when one shifts from defending the right to free speech to advocating for freedom of consequences arising from speech.
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    Cricketer Of The Year Gnske's Avatar
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    Consequences like the freedom to call someone a ****ing **** if they believe stupid ****.

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  8. #7508
    Dan
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    I do agree with Ikki on the point that, overwhelmingly, people disagree poorly.

    Tough balance to strike, I suppose, given that if you go too far on the whole 'respect' thing you end up legitimising literally evil things or uttering empty platitudes that are entirely uncritical, and if you don't go far enough with respecting diversity of opinion you end up with everyone so pedantically fragmented and focused on minutiae that nothing ever gets done and everyone hates each other. AnCap purity pissing contests are probably the best example of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    pedantically fragmented and focused on minutiae that nothing ever gets done and everyone hates each other.
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  10. #7510
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Honestly more and more it seems like all sides just want a dictator who agrees with them.
    I don't really think this is true for most people. I actually do, but I'm not going to vote one in.
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  11. #7511
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Nice in theory, Ikki, but how far does that 'respect' have to extend?

    Do we 'respect' "All Mexicans are rapists"?
    Do we 'respect' the KKK?
    Should we take the Socialist Alternative seriously?
    Should one respect the principled stance of ISIS, even if they disagree with it and their actions?

    I think it becomes awfully dangerous when one shifts from defending the right to free speech to advocating for freedom of consequences arising from speech.
    Well I've already made my point in this regard that I think people should be able to do most things so long as they're not directly harming someone else. That doesn't mean I will agree with everyone in how they utilise this right, but it means people don't feel forced to accommodate a way of life they disagree with. Ultimately, these rights are not for all the pretty and nice things everyone agrees with but for the things that are ugly, hard and the matters that divide us. It's not meant for 50%+1 but for that individual to feel safe even within a democracy.

    If, for example, people want to be racists or homophobes, when they don't provide a service or something, let that be. The harder you push to 'ban' them the harder they push back. Ultimately, only time and education through culture is going to bring us together. Not force. Writing a law doesn't bring the desired change in the long run because people have an objection to being ruled. In the long run unity is going to win and people will learn that on their own. We have to engage each other as humans and individuals rather than groups that seek to overpower each other because that will cause a lingering resentment which can bring about ugly conflicts between us.

    Even though we disagree on how we view the feminist movement, I'm sure you've witnessed the strengthening of the Alt-Right recently. I think the rise is a result of becoming too politically correct and hypocritical. That doesn't mean it didn't start from a legitimate concern but the one-way traffic has taken it elsewhere. The latent resentment resulting from that has given someone like Trump power to utilise the kinds of people who use some rational arguments for their undesirable aims. And they too mirror the feminists or opposers; as they start from a position that has legitimate concern and take that into dangerous rhetoric. And this is entirely predictable because the power you want to use to rule others, even for what you think is their good or benefit, can be used against you when they mobilise as a group. Government may have passed the Civil Rights Act, but it also passed Jim Crow laws.

    Neither see how they take one thing and go too far. That's what I mean about the lack of respect given to the other opposing side. People don't understand that they can live in world where the corner store doesn't sell a wedding cake to a homosexual couple and also give that same couple the same individual rights everyone else has. There's no compromise and because of that it will just breed this kind of extreme resentment and polarising climate.

    People have this myth about democracy and government as if we're all good or bad because of what the government does when I think these ideologies and institutions will always move towards people using force in a bad way because they think by virtue of the fact that they got the majority that it legitimises their power and their views. Instead of trying to minimise the power they hold, we try to amplify it because we think if only our side won, we'd do a lot of good. It doesn't seem to motivate them on taking up their own cause and spreading the goodness voluntarily.

    Unfortunately, we've become lazy in wanting to institute change ourselves and want everything to be done through force of government. The side-effect of this is that we do not engage with each other as members of a society and instead we shout at a distance while we try to subjugate the other. You can ignore it as hippie bullshit, but I think we all are just trying to live our lives and raise our families with love. That we are at the core concerned about the same things and that when we engage each other and share some time, or even better a tea or meal, we stop ourselves from wanting to overpower them because we see them as us.

  12. #7512
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    More on Trump's gaffe which I am still processing:

    1) He centred in on the Mother not speaking "Was she not allowed to speak". That is actually a slight insinuation that as a Muslim woman she might not have been allowed to. I didn't process the anti Muslim connotation of the comment at first.
    2) I have also thought more about the fact that he went after the mother but left the father alone. I would have to see more examples but he could possibly be a misogynist?
    3) No one I have told today seems to care about him going after the mother. As in nothing more suprises them about Trump or shocks them anymore. To me the example does matter, it is the biggest low point of his campaign. Mother's really care about their sons and I think he was unwise to tread on that territory.
    At one point I viewed the choice of the election as thus:

    Hilary was the sensible choice but possibly the boring choice
    Trump was the car crash choice where his potential election would guarantee 4 years of non stop entertainment in the news.

    Now I am starting to question the competence of the voters who backed him in the primaries the longer he keeps going. Still maybe in his defence this was just an error in judgement and he will bounce back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Unfortunately, we've become lazy in wanting to institute change ourselves and want everything to be done through force of government. The side-effect of this is that we do not engage with each other as members of a society and instead we shout at a distance while we try to subjugate the other.
    This is utter crap, there are millions of people trying to change things for themselves at this very moment.

  14. #7514
    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    More on Trump's gaffe which I am still processing:

    1) He centred in on the Mother not speaking "Was she not allowed to speak". That is actually a slight insinuation that as a Muslim woman she might not have been allowed to. I didn't process the anti Muslim connotation of the comment at first.
    2) I have also thought more about the fact that he went after the mother but left the father alone. I would have to see more examples but he could possibly be a misogynist?
    3) No one I have told today seems to care about him going after the mother. As in nothing more suprises them about Trump or shocks them anymore. To me the example does matter, it is the biggest low point of his campaign. Mother's really care about their sons and I think he was unwise to tread on that territory.
    At one point I viewed the choice of the election as thus:

    Hilary was the sensible choice but possibly the boring choice
    Trump was the car crash choice where his potential election would guarantee 4 years of non stop entertainment in the news.

    Now I am starting to question the competence of the voters who backed him in the primaries the longer he keeps going. Still maybe in his defence this was just an error in judgement and he will bounce back.

    Umm, if his continued backing of Alies, argument with Megyn Kelly, insulting many women on their appearance hasn't giving you a good idea of this, I'm not sure what will.
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  15. #7515
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    Umm, if his continued backing of Alies, argument with Megyn Kelly, insulting many women on their appearance hasn't giving you a good idea of this, I'm not sure what will.
    "Alies"?

    Spelling mistake? what are you trying to say? or is this someone's first name? Sorry if this is an obvious reference I don't tune in every day.

    Secondly, I am not his apologist by any measure - I just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and don't use words like misogynist unless technically strictly called for. I do use hyperbole - just not with words like that.



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