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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #24271
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    That’s not universally true, in a lot of male-dominated cultures, women actually don’t have much say in that decision...

  2. #24272
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    That’s not universally true, in a lot of male-dominated cultures, women actually don’t have much say in that decision...
    Sure. I'd have no problem with anyone being held to account to the degree they're responsible for a decision.
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    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    This seems inconsistent. If you did something to a child that would constitute child abuse when they're outside the womb, how is that any different if they're inside the womb - yet still their own human being?
    I guess it is to an extent.

    Tbh, it's not really an issue I've done a ton of thinking on but my instinct is that there isn't a particularly clear line on when you would or would not enforce something like that. We could all agree that borderline overdosing while pregnant is irresponsible to the point it could be considered abuse. Having a cigarette? Having a pack of them? Getting blind drunk once? Having a glass of wine? How much exercise is enough? How much exercise is too much?

    I think it's much more difficult to justify intervention when you get into actions that don't have the explicit intention of harming/killing the infant.

  4. #24274
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I guess it is to an extent.

    Tbh, it's not really an issue I've done a ton of thinking on but my instinct is that there isn't a particularly clear line on when you would or would not enforce something like that. We could all agree that borderline overdosing while pregnant is irresponsible to the point it could be considered abuse. Having a cigarette? Having a pack of them? Getting blind drunk once? Having a glass of wine? How much exercise is enough? How much exercise is too much?

    I think it's much more difficult to justify intervention when you get into actions that don't have the explicit intention of harming/killing the infant.
    But even in child abuse, you can have abuse via neglect for example. You don't INTEND to harm a child, but you can still commit abuse.
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  5. #24275
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    But even in child abuse, you can have abuse via neglect for example. You don't INTEND to harm a child, but you can still commit abuse.
    I don't think that takes away from the bold though. Even in the case of the deliberate, premeditated killing of the child I acknowledge that the woman's body being involved makes it a difficult issue morally. That consideration is magnified exponentially when you're talking about an already grey area like neglect. So while I take the point in theoretical terms, I don't see any way of drawing anything remotely resembling reasonable lines around it.

  6. #24276
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    What if the infant dies because the mother does something risky - and illegal (overdosed on heroin...or didn't wear a seatbelt) - but she did not intend to harm the child?

  7. #24277
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    We could all agree that borderline overdosing while pregnant is irresponsible to the point it could be considered abuse.
    I would not agree with that.

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    International Captain Niall's Avatar
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  9. #24279
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    I used to feel the way Ausage did about abortion.

    Some change in thinking has occurred since then:
    - a realisation that just because a line is arbitrary doesn't mean that it's not useful or "true" for our purposes
    - a realisation that "rights" of both the mother and the foetus are constructed in the first place, and that it is always a thing for one person's "rights" to outweigh another's at any given time in society anyway
    - an acceptance that things that happen to a woman's body affect her in a way quite different from the way they affect the rest of us
    - I am not going to argue that a foetus is not "alive". Of course it is alive. And it also responds to stimuli quite early on. Some might call that "feeling" (I probably don't but not quite sure).
    - Still, we make alive things dead all the time. Yes, alive humans are different from alive rats or cockroaches or fleas. But this is an alive human that is directly affecting the life of another human being.

    I'm still not one of those people who thinks abortion is just something not even have a quandary about, or that the foetus/embryo is of zero concern whatsoever.
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  10. #24280
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    What if the infant dies because the mother does something risky - and illegal (overdosed on heroin...or didn't wear a seatbelt) - but she did not intend to harm the child?
    I think, theoretically at least, the woman's negligence is responsible for the death of the child in such a scenario. That's a much cleaner line than "has the mother exercised enough" or "is she eating right" though?

    Another example would be in cases where a pregnant woman has been assaulted with the express aim of harming/killing the child (but not killing the mother). To me that's straight up murder.

  11. #24281
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I think, theoretically at least, the woman's negligence is responsible for the death of the child in such a scenario. That's a much cleaner line than "has the mother exercised enough" or "is she eating right" though?

    Another example would be in cases where a pregnant woman has been assaulted with the express aim of harming/killing the child (but not killing the mother). To me that's straight up murder.
    I think there's quite a massive, inherent difference between what a woman does with her own body vs what someone else does to her/the foetus.

    I don't even think you can call that negligence. It's just not reality for you to separate the foetus and the mother like that.

  12. #24282
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I think there's quite a massive, inherent difference between what a woman does with her own body vs what someone else does to her/the foetus.
    I wasn't so much suggesting an equivalence. More illustrating that I'm comfortable with the idea that actions that affect the child in utero are equivalent to actions taken post birth.

    That should be obvious at this point though

  13. #24283
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I used to feel the way Ausage did about abortion.

    Some change in thinking has occurred since then:
    - a realisation that just because a line is arbitrary doesn't mean that it's not useful or "true" for our purposes
    - a realisation that "rights" of both the mother and the foetus are constructed in the first place, and that it is always a thing for one person's "rights" to outweigh another's at any given time in society anyway
    - an acceptance that things that happen to a woman's body affect her in a way quite different from the way they affect the rest of us
    - I am not going to argue that a foetus is not "alive". Of course it is alive. And it also responds to stimuli quite early on. Some might call that "feeling" (I probably don't but not quite sure).
    - Still, we make alive things dead all the time. Yes, alive humans are different from alive rats or cockroaches or fleas. But this is an alive human that is directly affecting the life of another human being.

    I'm still not one of those people who thinks abortion is just something not even have a quandary about, or that the foetus/embryo is of zero concern whatsoever.
    I used to think abortion was much more morally wrong than I do now. It only amounted to "people shouldn't get abortions" or "I wouldn't agree to an abortion", though, I never wanted abortion to be illegal. Rounding up women and throwing them in jail for it is pure dystopian ****.
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  14. #24284
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I think, theoretically at least, the woman's negligence is responsible for the death of the child in such a scenario. That's a much cleaner line than "has the mother exercised enough" or "is she eating right" though?

    Another example would be in cases where a pregnant woman has been assaulted with the express aim of harming/killing the child (but not killing the mother). To me that's straight up murder.
    Interesting. This is hardly an uncommon view, but it is interesting that most legal systems around the world don't consider this murder (usually some other offence called "Unlawful killing of fetus" or something like that).

    Out of interest (and apologies if you have already clarified this), but at which point for you would the fetus be considered human? At the point an egg becomes fertilised? At the point a fertilised embryo attaches to the uterus? Something else?

  15. #24285
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Just building on the above, it's interesting how in English law, if you stab a pregnant woman in the stomach (let's say), and the fetus is killed as a result, this would not be murder.

    But, if you did this stabbing, and this caused the woman to give birth prematurely, and then the fetus/baby died, this would be murder.



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