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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #24241
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    and if a law isn't practical then what is the point of it? in this case the hope of causing people to only have *** in ways ausage and other social conservatives find acceptable is classic micro managing of peoples personal lives based on how you think they should live. social conservatism 101.
    In what world is the an accurate depiction of my viewpoint? In what way have I given the impression I'm revelling in the implications of a fetus being human?

    Stop being deliberately obtuse about this.
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  2. #24242
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Abortion is more like the causing of death via the withdrawal of treatment rather than a positive act of killing imo.

    Basically akin to unhooking a person (i.e. the fetus) from a life support machine (i.e. the mother's body).
    Last edited by sledger; 07-04-2019 at 06:03 AM.

  3. #24243
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    I mean, even if we accept that a fetus is a human being (which I do not, personally, up to a certain point anyway), and that it therefore has a right to life, the idea that its right to life extends to a right to use someone else's body to live (i.e. the mother) is total madness imo.

    Abortion does not directly affect the fetus' right to live, it just deprives it of something it has no right to.

    Assuming of course the fetus is not capable of surviving without the body of the mother. If it can then that changes things somewhat.

  4. #24244
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I mean, even if we accept that a fetus is a human being (which I do not, personally, up to a certain point anyway), and that it therefore has a right to life, the idea that its right to life extends to a right to use someone else's body to live (i.e. the mother) is total madness imo.

    Abortion does not directly affect the fetus' right to live, it just deprives it of something it has no right to.

    Assuming of course the fetus is not capable of surviving without the body of the mother. If it can then that changes things somewhat.
    This is more or less the Rothbard position


  5. #24245
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    This is more or less the Rothbard position
    Haha didn't actually know this tbh.

  6. #24246
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    This is more or less the Rothbard position
    Haha yep it's down the line evictionism, particularly with the important addition of that last line. Rothbard laid it out, Walter Block perfected it, almost no-one other than hardcore libertarians actually see it precisely like that and it's a civil war even amongst us, in the meetings we hold in phone booths. Seeing sledger articulate it amused me.
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  7. #24247
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I mean, even if we accept that a fetus is a human being (which I do not, personally, up to a certain point anyway), and that it therefore has a right to life, the idea that its right to life extends to a right to use someone else's body to live (i.e. the mother) is total madness imo.

    Abortion does not directly affect the fetus' right to live, it just deprives it of something it has no right to.

    Assuming of course the fetus is not capable of surviving without the body of the mother. If it can then that changes things somewhat.
    Except (excluding cases of rape) it was invited in.

    It'd be like inviting someone into your hot air balloon, going 1000s of feet in the air then asking them to vacate your property. You've put them in a position where they're vulnerable before using a rights based argument to kill them.

  8. #24248
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Except (excluding cases of rape) it was invited in.

    It'd be like inviting someone into your hot air balloon, going 1000s of feet in the air then asking them to vacate your property. You've put them in a position where they're vulnerable before using a rights based argument to kill them.
    This logic only really works if one accepts the premise that the sole and exclusive purpose of having *** is to conceive a child.

    If a person's intended purpose is anything else, then at best they can be described as reckless to the possibility of conceiving a child. With this being the case, the inviting someone into your property/balloon analogy does not really work.

    It's like saying if you leave the front door of your house open and a random person from the street walks in this constitutes an invitation, and this person now has an irrevocable claim on your property.
    Last edited by sledger; 07-04-2019 at 06:27 AM.

  9. #24249
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    This logic only really works if one accepts the premise that the sole and exclusive purpose of having *** is to conceive a child.
    Most people are very well aware that the creation of a life is a potential outcome to having *** though. In the vast majority of cases you're talking about a voluntarily entered action in which both parties had the knowledge that pregnancy was a predictable, if not necessarily likely, consequence.

  10. #24250
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Most people are very well aware that the creation of a life is a potential outcome to having *** though. In the vast majority of cases you're talking about a voluntarily entered action in which both parties had the knowledge that pregnancy was a predictable, if not necessarily likely, consequence.
    Yeah, but I am also very well aware that me getting mugged/attacked is a potential outcome of me leaving my house.

  11. #24251
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, but I am also very well aware that me getting mugged/attacked is a potential outcome of me leaving my house.
    I don't see how that analogy maps. In one you're talking about a predictable if unintended consequence of your actions and your actions alone, in the other you're talking about being the victim of an violent act by a third party.

  12. #24252
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    I was just attempting to highlight that forseeability of possible consequences =/= invitation of those consequences.

  13. #24253
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    I was just attempting to highlight that forseeability of possible consequences =/= invitation of those consequences.
    Sure. I don't really think it applies to the relationship between having *** and getting pregnant, but I understand where you're coming from.

    Edit: Maybe a better analogy would be the consequences of a poor diet. If you ate unhealthily for a decade and developed diabetes you could argue that you weren't following that diet because you wanted to be unhealthy. You were just regularly enjoying delicious food. Nevertheless you'd be hard pressed to argue you aren't responsible for the condition you found yourself in.

    Doesn't map perfectly ofc, just how I see it.
    Last edited by Ausage; 07-04-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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  14. #24254
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Sure. I don't really think it applies to the relationship between having *** and getting pregnant, but I understand where you're coming from.

    Edit: Maybe a better analogy would be the consequences of a poor diet. If you ate unhealthily for a decade and developed diabetes you could argue that you weren't following that diet because you wanted to be unhealthy. You were just regularly enjoying delicious food. Nevertheless you'd be hard pressed to argue you aren't responsible for the condition you found yourself in.

    Doesn't map perfectly ofc, just how I see it.
    Indeed, but it would also be your prerogative to deal with said condition however you wanted. If you trying to improve your health alter your condition were to adversely affect someone else, and maybe even kill them (though I can't think of how in reality this might occur), whilst this might be morally dubious, this other person would have no claim on your body.

  15. #24255
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Indeed, but it would also be your prerogative to deal with said condition however you wanted. If you trying to improve your health alter your condition were to adversely affect someone else, and maybe even kill them (though I can't think of how in reality this might occur), whilst this might be morally dubious, this other person would have no claim on your body.
    The other person would have claim on their body though.

    I don't think my diabetes analogy really stretches this far though. I was mostly using it to illustrate that actions can have predictable consequences that weren't necessarily the primary motivator for said action.



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