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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #24226
    Cricketer Of The Year Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    That is a fallacy and an attempt at demonising women who have abortions. Abortion is not treated by women as an alternative (or even back-up) to contraception.
    Keep in mind that I'm simply trying to define an argument, not make it. The point remains that abortion is a last option should contraception fail or whatever the circumstance may be, these laws appear to be an attempt to remove it as a legal option
    Last edited by Maximas; 07-04-2019 at 04:53 AM.

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    It’s shitposting in a legal sense. They know it won’t go anywhere because to overturn Roe vs Wade, they’d need to make constitutional argument by reinterpreting a couple of amendments to the Bill of Rights. This, of course, is impossible because the same people tend to be rather in favour of the immutability of amendments where it concerns that tricky 2nd one and the placement of its comma. I.e. if Roe vs Wade is up for grabs, so are the guns.

    The best they can hope for is to make it a state’s rights issue and I’d suggest that’s exactly what they’ll do.
    Legally "states' rights" is actually the core of the argument against Roe vs. Wade as decided; i.e. the argument is that Roe vs. Wade was never actually a right incorporated into the Constitutition as amended, and thus should be left to the states. So that's nothing new.
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  3. #24228
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    Keep in mind that I'm simply trying to define an argument, not make it. The point remains that abortion is a last option should contraception fail or whatever the circumstance may be, these laws appear to be an attempt to remove it as a legal option
    All I was saying is that it is a false and poor 'definition' of the issue. We all know what the laws are attempting to do, and they are wrong and do not change the underlying problems, or even prevent abortions from occurring. All it does is potentially stigmatise and criminalise half the population.

    At the very least throw into jail and criminalise all the men that coerced and forced their partners into getting abortions......
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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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  5. #24230
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Legally "states' rights" is actually the core of the argument against Roe vs. Wade as decided; i.e. the argument is that Roe vs. Wade was never actually a right incorporated into the Constitutition as amended, and thus should be left to the states. So that's nothing new.
    Yeah, more what I was getting at. It’s the same **** every time. Since it goes nowhere legally, the states concerned just push through punitive legislation under the guise of protecting women’s health.

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    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Agree with everything regards nuclear energy needing to be done.... just wish they would not use Germany as some sort of scapegoat regards renewable, when one of Germany's main problems with the slow CO2 reduction was the decommissioning of their nuclear reactors, which should never have happened.

    If the American public and politicians can face real threats and overcome unfounded fears,
    Unfortunately this has not happened so far on just about anything....

  7. #24232
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    Even If I was convinced abortion is murder, the logical next conclusion for me would be okay so murder is defensible in certain circumstances, abortion then is one of them and not jail her up for 99 years.
    I would have to agree. We do allow people to take life in certain circumstances. Even if I did believe that abortion is murder, I would have to say that the woman's right to her own body overrides the rights of the fetus. If you're taking things to their logical extreme, you're gonna have to start locking up women suspected of trying to get an abortion, chaining them to beds, and forcing them to give birth against their will. That's the plot to multiple dystopian novels. No thank you.


    Also, if you DO believe that abortion is truly murder and want to send a woman to jail - why would you have exceptions for rape? I mean, you're saying in this case the trauma to the mother is worth committing murder for? That doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by silentstriker; 07-04-2019 at 05:46 AM.
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  8. #24233
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I would have to agree. We do allow people to take life in certain circumstances. Even if I did believe that abortion is murder, I would have to say that the woman's right to her own body overrides the rights of the fetus. If you're taking things to their logical extreme, you're gonna have to start locking up women suspected of trying to get an abortion, chaining them to beds, and forcing them to give birth against their will. That's the plot to multiple dystopian novels. No thank you.


    Also, if you DO believe that abortion is truly murder and want to send a woman to jail - why would you have exceptions for rape? I mean, you're saying in this case the trauma to the mother is worth committing murder for? That doesn't make sense.
    We don't call it "murder" in those circumstances.

  9. #24234
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    We don't call it "murder" in those circumstances.
    Sure, we use a term to legally distinguish it because we don't see it on the same level - it's still the same act though - the taking of a life. Even if you believe that a 6 week fetus has all the same rights as a 22 year old human being - I would argue that it would be in a different category than randomly killing someone.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    It would be a premeditated killing of an human being who had not aggressed against you. You can call it whatever you like, that's just about the precise definition of murder.

    Not liking the logical throughline of that has literally nothing to do with what the act is or isn't.
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    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    It's not about micromanaging people's *** lives so much as it's about not engaging with the attitude that abortion represents a perfectly viable and morally acceptable back-up to contraception the way I see it.

    Can't say I've ever been in love with the argument that when enough people break a law it's a stupid law either, but I see your point and somewhat agree
    it is tho. you're not murdering a human being, and most women already struggle enough with the decision to abort without being told a lie that they're killing a human being.

    and if a law isn't practical then what is the point of it? in this case the hope of causing people to only have *** in ways ausage and other social conservatives find acceptable is classic micro managing of peoples personal lives based on how you think they should live. social conservatism 101.
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  12. #24237
    Cricketer Of The Year Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    it is tho. you're not murdering a human being, and most women already struggle enough with the decision to abort without being told a lie that they're killing a human being.

    and if a law isn't practical then what is the point of it? in this case the hope of causing people to only have *** in ways ausage and other social conservatives find acceptable is classic micro managing of peoples personal lives based on how you think they should live. social conservatism 101.
    Your perspective here doesn't represent some sort of objective morality, this very thread is proof of that.

    Well, why as a society would we not want to encourage ways to have *** that don't end with the abortion of a foetus? Not making the argument that these laws appropriately address that issue, but encouraging vigilance with regards to contraception I'd have thought would be a fairly bi-partisan position.

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximas View Post
    Your perspective here doesn't represent some sort of objective morality, this very thread is proof of that.

    Well, why as a society would we not want to encourage ways to have *** that don't end with the abortion of a foetus? Not making the argument that these laws appropriately address that issue, but encouraging vigilance with regards to contraception I'd have thought would be a fairly bi-partisan position.
    find me a peer reviewed journal article proving a fetus is a true human being and i'll be on board.

    abortions are often traumatic and expensive and hard to go through, and depending on where you live you'll be judged af

    no one wants an abortion, sometimes they just gotta happen

    anecdotal evidence i know but no one i know or have been involved with who didn't want kids has been anything but vigilant about contraception. even then it fails sometimes.

  15. #24240
    Cricketer Of The Year Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    find me a peer reviewed journal article proving a fetus is a true human being and i'll be on board.
    Not trying to change your mind here, I haven't really made up my own on this particular issue from a moral standpoint, you probably know more than I about the actual science involved.

    abortions are often traumatic and expensive and hard to go through, and depending on where you live you'll be judged af
    Yeah I'm well aware, had an ex gf go through one shortly before we met

    no one wants an abortion, sometimes they just gotta happen

    anecdotal evidence i know but no one i know or have been involved with who didn't want kids has been anything but vigilant about contraception. even then it fails sometimes.
    Are you referring more to health concerns or the economic factors (which make up quite a large amount of abortions in the US at least)? I am very open to the view that it is also immoral to bring a child into the world without having much hope of being able or willing to provide for it.



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