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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #23971
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    The practical arguments don't compliment each other though, because markets are not a panacea for every economic and societal problem, just as State ownership and/ or collectivization aren't. Your starting premise that the State is ineffective and immoral whilst markets are inherently wonderful and will solve societal ills if just left alone, is the fundamental fallacy in the libertarian position. Historical and contemporary examples abound of State excesses, but those of abuse of market power by business and individuals also abound. Neither is a cure-all.

    You put this position of "fundamental immorality" as though it's a given. I don't accept that it is.
    I'm not and wouldn't argue that that any system is capable of creating a utopia though. Humans are fundamentally flawed creatures, prone to greed, corruption, in-group preference, vice etc. There will always be an element of that in our societies. But if humans are flawed, prone to corruption etc, centralising power is providing the means for the flawed and corrupt among us to exercise far greater influence than they would otherwise have. That goes for those trying to work within it and those trying to utilise it from the outside.

    This is pretty well trodden ground though. I don't have the time to properly engage with the topic atm and I get I'm not going to move the needle for you on this anyway. It's the idea that the whole thing is about moral absolutism I have a real problem with.
    Last edited by Ausage; 13-03-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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  2. #23972
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    I really didn’t know things like this happen in the US or anywhere tbh:

    https://twitter.com/talbertswan/stat...852629505?s=21

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    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    No. It's like saying "we want to improve our attack, so we've signed this great keeper".
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  4. #23974
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I really didn’t know things like this happen in the US or anywhere tbh:

    https://twitter.com/talbertswan/stat...852629505?s=21
    It's actually sickening. America has a lot of problems - I'll be the first to admit that. But you can make an argument that the public school system is the single biggest one. The difference in the resources available to a rich town vs a poor neighborhood is nothing short of embarrassing. If you go to a school in a poor neighborhood, you are essentially ****ed and it's almost impossible to get a quality education. What's worse, we treat parents as criminals when they try to do the best for their children and try to get them into a school that might actually give them a future. I would do exactly the same thing as these parents if it was my kid's future on the line. It's sick. It's one of the places where democrats have a terrible platform. Parents should absolutely be able to choose exactly where their kid goes to school. I know charter schools have their problems but it's immoral to make parents send their kids to these horrible unsafe schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I really didn’t know things like this happen in the US or anywhere tbh:

    https://twitter.com/talbertswan/stat...852629505?s=21
    What the absolute ****
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  6. #23976
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Union money.

  7. #23977
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    I'm just devastated to find out that high school life in the US isn't a cross between Buffy, Riverdale and Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
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  8. #23978
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I really didn’t know things like this happen in the US or anywhere tbh:

    https://twitter.com/talbertswan/stat...852629505?s=21
    This sounded a little too unreal to be true, so I looked it up and snopes said she was given five years for drugs and prostitution.

    Nevertheless...

    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    It's actually sickening. America has a lot of problems - I'll be the first to admit that. But you can make an argument that the public school system is the single biggest one. The difference in the resources available to a rich town vs a poor neighborhood is nothing short of embarrassing. If you go to a school in a poor neighborhood, you are essentially ****ed and it's almost impossible to get a quality education. What's worse, we treat parents as criminals when they try to do the best for their children and try to get them into a school that might actually give them a future. I would do exactly the same thing as these parents if it was my kid's future on the line. It's sick. It's one of the places where democrats have a terrible platform. Parents should absolutely be able to choose exactly where their kid goes to school. I know charter schools have their problems but it's immoral to make parents send their kids to these horrible unsafe schools.
    I heard this too from friend of mine who moved to Texas, that the public education system in the US ****ing sucks. Integrated School Districts are funded directly from property taxes within that area so if you're in a poor area your ISD gets hardly any funding. Also that getting voted onto the ISD board or being superintendent is often a cushy sinecure, and that there is massive duplication in administration of schools within ISDs. It sounds like it's full of wheezes, inefficient and very much the opposite of 'equality of opportunity'.
    Last edited by straw man; 13-03-2019 at 10:09 PM.

  9. #23979
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    ITT: people retreat to the safespace of libertarianism after proclaiming standard neoconservative attacks on centre left politicians.

    Consistency.
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  10. #23980
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Yeah, we're all just neo cons in disguise. You cracked the code mate.

    Absolute dirge of a post.

  11. #23981
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Yeah, we're all just neo cons in disguise. You cracked the code mate.

    Absolute dirge of a post.
    I didn't say you're a neoconservative. I said you attack left wing politicians from a typical neoconservative position, with some pretty consistent neoconservative tropes. blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah marx was evil etc just totally irrelevant stuff.

    It is very galling in the case of AOC.

    I'm not even a fan but we have to hear this frequent shriek of marxism any time she comes up with some even half progressive opinion. Even when some of them would supposedly align with libertarian values e.g. abolishing US immigration and customs enforcing agencies/or decriminalising immigration and implementing stronger anti-corruption laws across governmental representatives.
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  12. #23982
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I didn't say you're a neoconservative. I said you attack left wing politicians from a typical neoconservative position, with some pretty consistent neoconservative tropes. blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah marx was evil etc just totally irrelevant stuff.
    Yeah, this is a massive walk back from your earlier post, but w/e.

    I don't think I've ever used the kind of tropes you're describing regarding with AOC. I mostly think she's a moron. A strong political operator with a good sense of how to communicate with her generation (annoying as her demeanour is), but a moron all the same. A left wing Trump.

    I'm not sure in what world you'd expect a Libertarian to be pro the level of government interference required for the GND or the majority of what she proposes. I also think comments like "the world is going to end in 10 years" are stupidly alarmist in the same way "the immigrants are raping all the people" is. Releasing stupid thought bubbles like ending air travel and farting cows, then burying the evidence and blaming it on "right wing conspiracies" is pretty odious as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I'm not even a fan but we have to hear this frequent shriek of marxism any time she comes up with some even half progressive opinion. Even when some of them would supposedly align with libertarian values e.g. abolishing US immigration and customs enforcing agencies/or decriminalising immigration and implementing stronger anti-corruption laws across governmental representatives.
    I'm not pro open borders though. You're talking essentially about the dissolution of a nation, and we're a long long way from being able to do that. Her proposals around immigration and customs agencies are irresponsible in the extreme. I'm sure improvements to how the system works are possible and I'd certainly approve of mechanisms that make it much easier for people to cross borders and work legally, but in asking to abolish the agencies that enforce border laws she's doing nothing but spewing poorly thought out red meat to her base.

    I'm not aware of the anti-corruption laws she's proposed, but sorry, I'm not inclined to take a word she says seriously. She's a moron.
    Last edited by Ausage; 14-03-2019 at 12:35 AM.

  13. #23983
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I didn't say you're a neoconservative. I said you attack left wing politicians from a typical neoconservative position, with some pretty consistent neoconservative tropes. blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah marx was evil etc just totally irrelevant stuff.

    It is very galling in the case of AOC.

    I'm not even a fan but we have to hear this frequent shriek of marxism any time she comes up with some even half progressive opinion. Even when some of them would supposedly align with libertarian values e.g. abolishing US immigration and customs enforcing agencies/or decriminalising immigration and implementing stronger anti-corruption laws across governmental representatives.
    Not talking about any of the posters here, but

    Ben Shapiro : AOC is only a successful politician because of her ethnicity and gender

    Also, Ben Shapiro : The left engages in identity politics all the time, why won't AOC debate me?
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  14. #23984
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Not talking about any of the posters here, but

    Ben Shapiro : AOC is only a successful politician because of her ethnicity and gender

    Also, Ben Shapiro : The left engages in identity politics all the time, why won't AOC debate me?
    I think that is very true of Shapiro. He can be great value but often resorts to everything he accuses the left of.

  15. #23985
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    I didn't say you're a neoconservative. I said you attack left wing politicians from a typical neoconservative position, with some pretty consistent neoconservative tropes. blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah marx was evil etc just totally irrelevant stuff.

    It is very galling in the case of AOC.

    I'm not even a fan but we have to hear this frequent shriek of marxism any time she comes up with some even half progressive opinion. Even when some of them would supposedly align with libertarian values e.g. abolishing US immigration and customs enforcing agencies/or decriminalising immigration and implementing stronger anti-corruption laws across governmental representatives.
    In your head does the **** you spout make sense or are you just trolling?

    Aside from the fact she proclaims herself a socialist - in isolation abolishing immigration laws is not a libertarian value. Her take on anti-corruption is theoretically good and yet the video from Congress that went viral was chopped and missing a rebuttal that demonstrated the flaws and gaps in her supposed facts. It doesn’t make her worse than any other politician, but.

    Ultimately though, aside from the fact you started with a straw man, calling a Marxist a Marxist isn’t a neocon trope, but I’m not even sure Ausage or I called her out as that anyway?
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