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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #23941
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    If by step in the right direction you mean burning America to the ground then I suppose so. I mean to paraphrase Dave Smith, neocons are horrible but at least their plans centre around destroying other countries. AOCís plans are sheer lunacy and anyone over the age of 9 should recognise them for what they are - bankrupt and redundant ideas.

    RE VAT - donít you have sales tax in America? Either way, how can you argue further down the page for progressive taxes and then argue for VAT, which penalises the poor far more, with a straight face?
    I donít agree with this line of argument. The tax system as a whole should be progressive, but insisting that every individual tax is progressive is an unnecessary constraint that leads to lower efficiency.

  2. #23942
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Taxes that penalise the poor most of all are disgusting, the sort of practice the government likes to outlaw when performed by the private sector
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  3. #23943
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    Yes, but they’re easy to offset.

    So a tax that is regressive but good for other reasons shouldn’t be discarded. It should just be attached to a progressive change in another tax.

  4. #23944
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Well I guess this is where we are poles apart ideologically.


  5. #23945
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    If the net effect of your total tax structure is beneficial to people who are poor, why would it matter if a specific tax is beneficial or not? Individual taxes don’t exist in a vacuum - you have to take the whole system into account.
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  6. #23946
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    To answer Burgeys question, in my opinion, illegitimate income in my view is any income or assets that are inherited.

  7. #23947
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    To answer Burgeys question, in my opinion, illegitimate income in my view is any income or assets that are inherited.
    People work hard when they have kids to be able to leave them a comfortable inheritance. Its one of the fundamental facets of being a parent. It's not illegitimate. It's a wonderful thing for a parent to try and do that.

    This does not have to be in conflict with creating a egalitarian wealthy society.
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  8. #23948
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Yeah food and kids clothes are exempt here I believe

    Everything should be exempt of course, but never mind. Mafia has to look after its racket
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  9. #23949
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    If the net effect of your total tax structure is beneficial to people who are poor, why would it matter if a specific tax is beneficial or not? Individual taxes don’t exist in a vacuum - you have to take the whole system into account.
    Do what you want, I donít agree with a word youíve just said but my original point was that in the same breath you called for progressive taxation and VAT. Contradictory.

    But then accepted wisdom round here seems to be its okay to be contradictory, presumably because itís the only way to justify that most of you hold views that are completely at odds with your other views and therefore completely incoherent. But hey, as long as youíre all happy then Iím happy too because on the most part youíre good people, just with bad ideas.
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  10. #23950
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Do what you want, I don’t agree with a word you’ve just said but my original point was that in the same breath you called for progressive taxation and VAT. Contradictory.

    But then accepted wisdom round here seems to be its okay to be contradictory, presumably because it’s the only way to justify that most of you hold views that are completely at odds with your other views and therefore completely incoherent. But hey, as long as you’re all happy then I’m happy too because on the most part you’re good people, just with bad ideas.
    This is like saying that if you want your football team to score goals, you're being hypocritical if you don't care about your keeper not scoring any goals.

  11. #23951
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    This is like saying that if you want your football team to score goals, you're being hypocritical if you don't care about your keeper not scoring any goals.
    No itís not.

    Itís like saying I want us to play attacking football, and then in the same breath saying I want us to play like George Grahamís title winning Arsenal sidea of 89 and 91.

    I accept you can believe in Ďprogressiveí taxes and that there should still be VAT, but they were presented as part of the same pitch, hence my comment.

  12. #23952
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    This is like saying that if you want your football team to score goals, you're being hypocritical if you don't care about your keeper not scoring any goals.
    No. It's like saying "we want to improve our attack, so we've signed this great keeper".
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  13. #23953
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Do what you want, I donít agree with a word youíve just said but my original point was that in the same breath you called for progressive taxation and VAT. Contradictory.

    But then accepted wisdom round here seems to be its okay to be contradictory, presumably because itís the only way to justify that most of you hold views that are completely at odds with your other views and therefore completely incoherent. But hey, as long as youíre all happy then Iím happy too because on the most part youíre good people, just with bad ideas.
    This is precisely the pig headedness of your approach which makes you Ikki-lite. Heaven forbid people look at issues and say ďThis, but also thatĒ rather than ďThis. This is the only way, the only approach. Regardless of its lack or practicality or applicability to the real world or to any given situation, Imma stick to my guns even though Iím firing blanks.Ē

    You lot are deadset the mirror image of the old Trots back at Uni in the day. You may as well take your cues on the real world from Alice in Wonderland. Itís embarrassing to be proud of being strident in the face of all available evidence.

    Get in the house of mirrors and have a good, long hard look at yourself instead of trying to fit complex systems and societies neatly into the perverse box you hold store in. That sort of intransigence doesnít work. It never works. All you end up doing is sacrificing good on the altar of perfection. In your case the God itself is perverse, but thatís not the point. The point is this philosophical inflexibility from either/ any side of politics is ****ing ludicrous.

  14. #23954
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    People work hard when they have kids to be able to leave them a comfortable inheritance. Its one of the fundamental facets of being a parent. It's not illegitimate. It's a wonderful thing for a parent to try and do that.

    This does not have to be in conflict with creating a egalitarian wealthy society.
    Sure. I don’t think you can get rid of inheritance for a multitude of reasons. One being there’ll be ways around it, especially for the super wealthy. But in my opinion, I don’t consider it “legitimate” income.

  15. #23955
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Do what you want, I don’t agree with a word you’ve just said but my original point was that in the same breath you called for progressive taxation and VAT. Contradictory.
    It’s not contradictory at all. There is a way to have VAT AND make your tax system be progressive. You can Give rebates, you can exempt items, you can offset that cost with benefits elsewhere etc. I don’t really get the contradiction.

    Yes, a VAT system implemented in its pure form combined with no other taxes will still be progrsssive (because rich people tend to spend more than poor people) but would be more harmful to poor people. But neither I nor anyone else that I’ve even heard of is in favor of a completely rigid VAT with no exemptions or other forms to ease the burden on poor people. You’d have to be a deluded fundamentalist to say that all systems must be implemented to their maximum theoretical purity.

    So yes. I stand by my statement. You can be for a VAT and also be for a progressive tax system.



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