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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #23491
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundking View Post
    Even if we do get significant breakthroughs in battery tech it's still a ridiculous endeavour as you then have to pour resources into the battery infrastructure to go along with the resources poured into the wind and solar infrastructure, and then there's the question of how much do you need, it's not exactly uncommon for Europe (for example) to have a lengthy period of a high pressure system lingering, which means no wind, so then you have to have enough solar capacity to cover the drop in wind energy generation and to charge the batteries, and what happens if, like so often it is in Europe, there's moderate cloud cover alongside the high pressure system. The amount of infrastructure needed to power our industrialised nations from wind and solar is simple insane, it makes no economic sense. The future is Nuclear, we're never gonna be able to solve the issue trying to do it with such diffuse sources of energy that are so unreliable.

    Of course if we could somehow figure out how to make the sun shine and the wind blow 24/7 then they'd be great, but alas we are not gods.

    Now that doesn't mean that there won't be any unforeseen innovations with the tech in the future that makes them great, and I'd welcome that, but if the IPCC is to be believed and doomsday is coming then we need solutions now, and wind and solar just aren't going to cut it.
    The answer is fusion, obsv.
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  2. #23492
    Evil Scotsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    The answer is fusion, obsv.
    Nowhere in his post does he ask who the worst mod is.

  3. #23493
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    Nowhere in his post does he ask who the worst mod is.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I can think of a list of Sydney Grade posters who would contribute a better average post than Bahnz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloakey View Post
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    A bit of a pace floozy (but a wise floozy).

  4. #23494
    Dan
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    Ok **** Climate Change I've just found the most galaxy brain take ever:
    "Sen. Lynn Hutchings, R-Cheyenne, argued that without the death penalty, Jesus Christ would not have been able to die to resolve the sins of mankind, and therefore capitol punishment should be maintained."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Honestly if Dan isn't the greatest living creature on Earth, he is only second behind Luggage.


  5. #23495
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Ok **** Climate Change I've just found the most galaxy brain take ever:
    "Sen. Lynn Hutchings, R-Cheyenne, argued that without the death penalty, Jesus Christ would not have been able to die to resolve the sins of mankind, and therefore capitol punishment should be maintained."
    Cmon man you just solve that by legalising euthanasia.
    Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

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  6. #23496
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundking View Post
    Even if we do get significant breakthroughs in battery tech it's still a ridiculous endeavour as you then have to pour resources into the battery infrastructure to go along with the resources poured into the wind and solar infrastructure, and then there's the question of how much do you need, it's not exactly uncommon for Europe (for example) to have a lengthy period of a high pressure system lingering, which means no wind, so then you have to have enough solar capacity to cover the drop in wind energy generation and to charge the batteries, and what happens if, like so often it is in Europe, there's moderate cloud cover alongside the high pressure system. The amount of infrastructure needed to power our industrialised nations from wind and solar is simple insane, it makes no economic sense. The future is Nuclear, we're never gonna be able to solve the issue trying to do it with such diffuse sources of energy that are so unreliable.

    Of course if we could somehow figure out how to make the sun shine and the wind blow 24/7 then they'd be great, but alas we are not gods.

    Now that doesn't mean that there won't be any unforeseen innovations with the tech in the future that makes them great, and I'd welcome that, but if the IPCC is to be believed and doomsday is coming then we need solutions now, and wind and solar just aren't going to cut it.
    While you are sitting around making up reasons to do nothing because the technology is not perfect, other people are forging ahead and have already solved many of these problems. Denmark has nearly 50% of its power generation from wind power - distributed generation smooths the variability significantly and good planning over distributed networks solves most of the problems of intermittency. Some countries are also very effective at generating a large fraction of their power from solar, so have clearly resolved a lot of the issues you complain about.

    You would think that given other people are already doing this, there would be a desire to learn from this and replicate it elsewhere. But instead in a lot of countries, eg. Australia, US, there's a pig-headed insistence on avoiding learning anything at all, instead chanting 'base load power' while trying to extend the life of aging and inefficient coal power plants and doing everything possible to death-ride initiatives like the virtual power plant in South Australia. With massive rooftop solar potential in Australia, backed by battery, pumped hydro where available and grid upgrades, that sould become a major part of the energy mix. But instead the reactionary media publish hit pieces at every turn and try to pin the 2016 blackout entirely on renewables, even though that was not conclusion of the investigation (except regarding one erroneous software setting that caused the outage of one set of wind turbines).

    It is all a fine example of why humanity will not solve the climate change problem - there is simply no will to do so, too much inertia, too many spurious reasons to delay and too few people willing to look at the problem with clear eyes and take necessary action.

  7. #23497
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    People are absolutely welcome to build more nuclear but investors are understandable leary due to the huge capital and enormous lead times.

  8. #23498
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Lol look at little statist man being hilarious
    Probably the most coherent sentence using the word 'statist' I've ever seen, kudos.

  9. #23499
    International Coach Bahnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    While you are sitting around making up reasons to do nothing because the technology is not perfect, other people are forging ahead and have already solved many of these problems. Denmark has nearly 50% of its power generation from wind power - distributed generation smooths the variability significantly and good planning over distributed networks solves most of the problems of intermittency. Some countries are also very effective at generating a large fraction of their power from solar, so have clearly resolved a lot of the issues you complain about.
    Denmark isn't a closed system though, so you can't say "look the intermittency problem is a myth because Denmark". It's a hub point between Germany and Scandanavia. When it produces too much wind, it exports it to these countries. When it doesn't get enough it can import coal and nuclear generated electricity from outside the country, thereby helping to smooth out supply and demand. Countries like the US and especially Australia don't really have that as an option.

  10. #23500
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Denmark isn't a closed system though, so you can't say "look the intermittency problem is a myth because Denmark". It's a hub point between Germany and Scandanavia. When it produces too much wind, it exports it to these countries. When it doesn't get enough it can import coal and nuclear generated electricity from outside the country, thereby helping to smooth out supply and demand. Countries like the US and especially Australia don't really have that as an option.
    The general point therefore is that if the variability is spread over a sufficiently large system then it becomes much easier to manage. Whether that's across country borders or not really doesn't matter. Geographic distribution is certainly an available option in the US and most of the world really, with only a handful of sparse and highly urbanised countries like Australia and Canada perhaps struggling.

    End of the day, they still get over 40% of their energy from wind and even if half the rest is made up of fossil fuels, that's a massive improvement over many other countries.

    Denmark are targeting a further ramp-up in the next couple of decades so, if we're interested in trying to solve this problem, we would watch closely how they do it.

  11. #23501
    International Coach StephenZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundking View Post
    Right but you still need base load back up for whatever percentage of grid electricity supply you get from solar and wind. So not only do you have to invest in infrastructure for the solar and wind, but you also have to invest in the back up power, so what the bleeding heck point is that? Just invest once in Nuclear if CO2 free power is your goal, and if you don't give two hoots about CO2 invest in whatever gives you the best bang for your buck. Erm what? Germany's electricity consumption has been going down since its peak in the mid 2000's, all the while the proportion of renewables has exploded. The reason why CO2 emissions has increased in Germany despite the huge increase in renewables is precisely the back up problem, you need something that you can power up at a moments notice that's a cheap as possible as you've already spent so much on installing the wind and solar and coal is the best at that. The decommissioning of the nuclear plants certainly isn't helping but that's not the cause.

    Also the fact that you have to double up on your infrastructure makes the consumer cost of electricity prohibitively expensive because of wind and solar.

    I didn't say that there wasn't an issue with resonance in the classic oil/coal/gas/nuclear grids, but it was solved decades and decades ago and it's surprisingly easy to do, they all use similar large turbines so all you have to do is have them rev at the same rate (normal operations is just shy of 4000rpm IIRC, but it's been a while since I checked) and then to bring them online all you have to do is do it one by one using computers to calculate what phase the electric signal is currently in and plug then the computers calculate when to plug in the next turbine when the phases match up. Then when the whole grid is online to cope with changes in demand all they have to do is rev up or rev down the whole system (i.e. each turbine) in unison. The problem with wind and solar is because the power is so variable (we can't control over how windy or sunny it is) there's no control over the frequency signal with them so now instead of the nice and 'easy' job the engineers have they're now having to manage software doing nanosecond calculations messing with the base load to keep the frequency stable because of the inputs from solar and wind (and if you don't get stable frequencies the grid goes down). Below is what it looks like, this picture is hell for any grid engineer

    This is what happened in a storm event that occurred in Australia back in September of 2016, the top shows power generation and the rapid changes in power production from wind farms as the storm hit and the bottom shows the corresponding frequency graph that the poor engineers are hopelessly trying to keep at a nice stable 50 Hz as they desperately try to balance the rapid changes in supply in relation to demand before they were overwhelmed and the whole system tripped out.

    Who gives a **** about efficiency when the other thing does the job much better? Yeah cool we might get solar panels that convert 90% of the suns energy that hits them into electricity yet you only get 15% efficiency from burning coal, but you still need vast swathes of solar covering the land to produce the power that 1 power plant can do in a much more dense floor plan, and then you still need to have a back up plant somewhere anyway, so it makes no sense. And now you've touched on the one place where solar makes any sense, it's only good for the initial jump of, the developing world is never going to be able to industrialise of solar or wind power, but it's great if your goal is to provide lighting or refrigeration for vaccines/medicine to a remote village while you wait for a proper grid to be built and the village to be hooked up to it.

    So in conclusion as to why solar and wind and useless forms of energy, they **** the grid up, the infrastructure investment is doubly expensive as you have to have twice the installed capacity for the intermittency problem, which ****s the economy up as it make electricity more expensive, and once you've finished weakening the economy and ****ing the grid up you don't even achieve your goal of reducing CO2 emission. What ridiculous stupid ****ing **** technology they truly are.
    You keep saying the same things. I am fully aware of the problems that solar and wind have and have specifically mentioned how it has been fixed and integrated into current systems slowly. And how new grid systems are designing for solar/wind power. You entire argument is based on one thing.... we have what we have, it works, why change it..... all this new fangled technology does not immediately and irrevocably replace what works and regardless of the new technologies benefits, the new technology is trash. I am sorry to say I can't give a reasoned argument against that attitude.

    But regardless of what anybody thinks solar and wind are being used in systems across the world very successfully in many different ways. It is by energy standards new technology, developing rapidly and will continue to simply because it works and is dropping rapidly in price. Solar and wind will become a high percentage of global energy and in generations to come people will say why was there even a discussion.
    Anil likes this.
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  12. #23502
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Groundking is an American't
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  13. #23503
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    Probably the most coherent sentence using the word 'statist' I've ever seen, kudos.
    Another absolutely stunning contribution, well done.

  14. #23504
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Yes, I definitely know nothing of real world concerns. I haven’t raised three children. I didn’t spend my mid twenties without two pennies to rub together. I’ve never been at risk of redundancy. I’ve never spent a night in the slammer. I don’t have a chronic back disorder. I don’t struggle with my constant battle against being a fat bastard.

    Bloody hell. I might have first world problems but I have real world concerns. I just find science boring.

    So **** off, you ****
    Mate, no offense, but both of our kids will have children that will inherit a very different world, and it'll partially be because of the negligence of people who find this **** boring.
    Last edited by nightprowler10; 15-02-2019 at 01:48 AM.
    Forever 63* at the SCG

  15. #23505
    Hall of Fame Member social's Avatar
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    No idea why you blokes are discussing fake news global warming when there’s a bigly crisis emergency at the southern border



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