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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #18646
    International Captain Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    Me: "avoid being dogmatic"
    Ikki: "not being dogmatic is dogmatic itself HAHAHAHAHA GOTCHA"
    Me: facepalm.
    Its more like:
    You - "Avoid being dogmatic"
    Ikki - "Change for the sake of change is bad"
    Both - Shouting and insults
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    Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

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  2. #18647
    vcs
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/u...-shooting.html

    The NRA seems to be in favour of banning bump stocks.

    I haven't heard our libertarians here accept to anything that they'd be willing to consider in terms of legislation...

    You know you're doing something wrong when even the bloody NRA seems more flexible than you on the issue of gun control.
    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Chix love a man with a checkered posting history.

  3. #18648
    vcs
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    Guns aren't playthings and we cannot simply assume that people will be responsible enough in their use. We don't allow 3 year olds and blind people to drive monster trucks either.

    If that involves Govt. making your life (a little) tough(er) when you want to buy that fourth rifle, or go out hunting or to the shooting range, tough ****.

  4. #18649
    International Captain Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I think part of this occasional apprehension is due to my own past experiences. A few years ago when I made the transition from being libertarian-leaning to having read a bunch of libertarian literature, I had that moment most libertarians have where they think that only if they can pass on the knowledge they've just acquired, everyone will see the light and become libertarians.. so I had a couple of months here where I posted a bunch in all the even barely relevant active threads here, derailing a bunch of threads into discussions about the merits of libertarianism, and even started turning Cricket Chat discussions into discussions about libertarianism. As all libertarians find out, it turns out that most people have different reactions to the material and don't become converts just upon being imparted with this knowledge.
    FWIW I credit the start of my dive into the issue being a combination of reading the ask PEWS thread and watching some talks/interviews by Yaron Brooks in quick succession.


  5. #18650
    International Captain Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    I haven't heard our libertarians here accept to anything that they'd be willing to consider in terms of legislation...
    I don't think that's fair at all. Ikki speaks for himself.

    Similar to GIMH, I'm not a big fan of debating hard on the issue. For one, it tends to only come up after one of these horrible incidents. Too often even advocating simple caution on gun control is portrayed as grotesque during such a time given the magnitude of what has happened to the people directly affected by it but if there's one view I have clearer than any other it's that we shouldn't be making decisions about this when emotions are high. Individuals don't think clearly when they're emotional and that applies infinitely to large groups of people. Secondly, while some level of stubbornness and tunnel vision can be seen in the pro 2A arguments, the level of ignorance and outright misinformation put out there by pro control folks is staggering. I'm not in any way comfortable with the people making these arguments having the level of influence they have over the discussion and my back is automatically put up by emotional, but ultimately heavily misleading monologues like the one by Jimmy Kimmel.

    Generally speaking I'd be pro people having the right to own guns, even for self defense. I'm also ok with the idea that being a citizen of a nation affords you certain responsibilities alongside your rights, so the idea of the of the capacity to own/carry being restricted to people with licenses also seems fine to me. Other considerations like safe storage/usage are better tackled through education measures than laws. All that said, I'm very much in agreement with the idea that the bigger issue is the darkness that dwells in our collective soul that people who want to murder so many other people are cropping up with such regularity. I think it's indicative of a sickness in the soul of our societies (particularly in the US, but you could make the same case for the Islamic community) and that's by far the most important factor to be resolved. Start to solve that and a lot of the problems with guns will resolve themselves. That is of course an insanely complicated issue and the discussions become politically charged virtually straight away, but I still don't see any long term resolution of the problem that doesn't tackle it from that pov first and foremost.

    As for bump stocks, in the context of the laws as they currently stand, how a device that turns a legal weapon into an illegal weapon is itself legal is beyond me. It looks like most people on both sides agree on this.
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  6. #18651
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't think most people knew bump stocks were a thing.
    do you think people will be allowed to make violins?
    who's going to make the violins?

    forever 63*

  7. #18652
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    I think heavy restrictions on gun ownership is one of those laws that only works with widespread support. I'm really glad I live in a country where that's the case, because my politics leans heavily towards outcomes and I prefer the system that doesn't produce piles and piles of dead bodies. But within the context of American politics I don't think much of any of the left's proposed measures. They're all either irrelevantly tiny or unworkable in a US context. The States has sort of reached a loads-of-guns equilibrium that you can't just legislate your way out of. I say all this despite finding the current situation unacceptable, not having any alternative solution, and finding pretty much all pro-gun arguments really tedious. I couldn't really advocate moving on from the conversation either. I don't find it ok to just respond to something like Sandy Hook with 'welp, these things happen.' It's basically a conversation in which I think all sides are wrong but don't know what's right.
    Last edited by Uppercut; 07-10-2017 at 12:49 AM.
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  8. #18653
    vcs
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    You're right, nothing will realistically happen.

    Guns are embedded too deeply into the collective psyche of the nation. The debate has successfully been pushed into whether any tiny incremental steps will actually do anything, which they won't.

    These articles are pretty spot on IMO.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...issing/542229/

    The Poverty of ?Data Journalism? and the Irony of Gun Control ? Talking Points Memo

  9. #18654
    International Vice-Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    Given the anti-establishment mood in the US right now, public support will probably be 180 degrees from media opinion. Reverse psychology ... ?

  10. #18655
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/u...-shooting.html

    The NRA seems to be in favour of banning bump stocks.

    I haven't heard our libertarians here accept to anything that they'd be willing to consider in terms of legislation...

    You know you're doing something wrong when even the bloody NRA seems more flexible than you on the issue of gun control.
    My god, your posting in this thread this week has been awful

    FTR, lobbyists are always flexible, because they know how to game the system. This is the same sort of mentality that somehow thinks regulations that cost millions for businesses to implement will hurt large corporates.

    I ainít on anyoneís team here, certainly not the NRA, so I DGAF what they think and itís relativity to me has no bearing on anything. They have an agenda that they want to ensure is adhered to; the idea this makes them morally superior is hilarious because what they are actually doing is using government to protect their own existence.

    One day youíll learn who the biggest lobbyists for drug laws in the US are, and then youíll be able to come at the Ďlegalise drugs crowdí and be like Ďeven these guys care more about peopleís health than youí

    Laughable.
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  11. #18656
    vcs
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    So OK then, tell me what you would do.

    I'm all ears.

    My posting is awful because I fundamentally disagree with you on the issue and need for guns in general?

  12. #18657
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    No. Most people in the thread advocate for gun laws. They havenít all been terrible

    Your posts have been terrible because youíve constantly written off arguments that havenít been made, youíve made it clear how little exposure you have to a broader political spectrum. And thatís fine. Stay in whatever bubble you want but donít then come out swinging at people who donít share it, with baseless reasoning.

    My position was articulated last night, so no need for me to repeat it.

  13. #18658
    vcs
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    Yeah I read your position, which was basically "do nothing because the big bad Govt. could come and kill us all"

    Sorry it that doesn't exactly wash with me.

    And no, I'm not going to stop posting just because you find it tedious, put me on ignore or stop replying if it bothers you so much.

  14. #18659
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Yeah I read your position, which was basically "do nothing because the big bad Govt. could come and kill us all"

    Sorry it that doesn't exactly wash with me.

    And no, I'm not going to stop posting just because you find it tedious, put me on ignore or stop replying if it bothers you so much.
    what? no it wasn't.

    you can't castigate ikki for making disingenuous arguments and then claim gimh said anything along those lines.
    Last edited by Spark; 07-10-2017 at 02:02 AM.

  15. #18660
    vcs
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    I've never castigated anyone, not even Ikki, or called anyone's posting bad. You can check my posts.

    Multiple times though, I've been called disingenuous, virtue-signalling, lacking any political knowledge/exposure (which is correct in my case, but talking down to someone doesn't help the tone of any conversation), not living in reality and what not.



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