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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #17986
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    One side just wanted to dress up as Nazis and circle a synagogue for an hour chanting anti-semitic slogans while flanked by armed white supremacist militias. The other was looking for a fight.
    Both sides are racists and fascists, however one of them thinks getting violent is justified. That's Charlottesville in a nutshell. I recall you yourself moralising about how it was right to attack someone if you think they're a Nazi. When it was pointed out to you where it might end it didn't sway you. And yet things like Berkeley and Charlottesville happen and people act puzzled as if they can't connect the dots.

    When these incidents cause discussion you realise who is even following the news and who is clapping like a trained seal. Trump didn't condemn the Nazis enough? Wait, what happened to Russia? Did the narrative finally end because the write-speed determined it was a local hack/inside job? I'm not sure, the meme for now is dead and now there's this which is only going to gain fans for Trump.

    It's a simple issue and it's not arguable unless you want to paint yourself as hypocritical moraliser - which is why you have the same handful of posters do their best at trying to marginalise my character instead of addressing the principles involved. Freedom of speech exists and that includes racist speech, and that's been used by both sides - that should be mentioned before people start pretending it is only referring to one side.

    I don't care if a Jew goes and pisses in a Mosque, the whole mosque doesn't get to assault him. And if the Jews wants to go into a park and spew anti-muslim chants the Muslim brotherhood has no business being there to fight them.
    Last edited by Ikki; 18-08-2017 at 10:00 AM.
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  2. #17987
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Trying to moralise when Spencer was punched was exactly what I didn't do.

    I laughed.
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  3. #17988
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    AntiFa should not be equated with the core left (and certainly liberals, like you say) and should be rejected by anyone left-leaning, the same way conservatives, libertarians, neo-cons, anyone grouped into that 'right' segment should reject the alt right. People on the whole need to drop the whole 'got to support the team' schtick, because if your team is the alt right or AntiFa, you're just a massive ****.

    It's not about both sides being as bad as each other, it's that those two sides don't represent two sides of a coin, they represent two segments of humanity that would be best ignored, if only we could. **** em.
    As Larry Elder says, if you were to name a prominent racist in America most people would name David Duke. Over 20 years ago he tried to run as a Republican and not only was he marginalised and received no support, they actively campaigned for the Democrat. People know Nazis/KKK/etc are bad. Yes, continue to condemn them but you won't see a Nazi Hollywood star, Presidential candidate and round-the-clock media talk about "Resistance" - not just as an idea but as a group of people who are to stand against the President.

    As to your wise suggestion: it's already happening, particularly with regards to the left. A lot of the media content creators for these online news were Progressives of very left-leaning liberals who have come to realise there is an extremist element and now classify themselves more as classical liberals. These are your Dave Rubins or Sargons. They have huge audiences for this reason. It's actually these people who are more attune to news like this and who will break it down which is why I say in the above that ultimately this is going to help Trump. The reports have been more about Trump than the fact that you have two warring racist/fascist groups who are using the media to propagate their nonsense.

  4. #17989
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    As Larry Elder says, if you were to name a prominent racist in America most people would name David Duke. Over 20 years ago he tried to run as a Republican and not only was he marginalised and received no support, they actively campaigned for the Democrat. People know Nazis/KKK/etc are bad. Yes, continue to condemn them but you won't see a Nazi Hollywood star, Presidential candidate and round-the-clock media talk about "Resistance" - not just as an idea but as a group of people who are to stand against the President.

    As to your wise suggestion: it's already happening, particularly with regards to the left. A lot of the media content creators for these online news were Progressives of very left-leaning liberals who have come to realise there is an extremist element and now classify themselves more as classical liberals. These are your Dave Rubins or Sargons. They have huge audiences for this reason. It's actually these people who are more attune to news like this and who will break it down which is why I say in the above that ultimately this is going to help Trump. The reports have been more about Trump than the fact that you have two warring racist/fascist groups who are using the media to propagate their nonsense.
    When you say wise suggestion, are you referring to me saying people on the left should distance themselves from Antifa?

    Fair old point about Rubin. Incredibly I've seen him called a Nazi on twitter.

    As for people knowing the Nazis are bad - indeed. Tom Woods put a great email out to that effect this week that I'd be happy to share. Also I said somewhere sometime this week about how communism/socialism gets romanticised, which (rightly) doesn't happen with fascism, hence why some are so keen to point out the 'both sides are ****s' argument.

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  5. #17990
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Trying to moralise when Spencer was punched was exactly what I didn't do.

    I laughed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    I think the 'centrist voter who is alienated by violence' stereotype only applies to assassinations, terrorism etc. Extreme aversion to punching a dickhead is real liberal snowflake shite that the left needs to shed.
    So what did this mean? I took it to mean that you think the left should shed its aversion to punching dickheads - which suggests that they should actually do the opposite and punch them.

    And if you meant it's just a funny thing and the rest of us are taking it too seriously; what do you say after multiple riots, hundreds and thousands in damage and several people dead or injured? Are we still talking crazy?

    I mean, to your credit you didn't come out like some others but not only is it no longer a laughing matter it is clear that this issue had preliminaries and they were brought up several times with the same voices trying to make it seem less than it was or even go so far as to make it about the speaker (Milo or Alt-right).
    Last edited by Ikki; 18-08-2017 at 09:32 AM.

  6. #17991
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    Enjoying the discussion guys.

    I think I don't agree 100% with the general consensus of the thread here that ANTIFA and Nazis are equally bad. While I think both groups are horrible ****s, i find Nazis are several grades worse than militant communists. I think there's a marked difference between hating someone because of their (capitalistic) beliefs and believing that people of non-white skin colours should be exterminated. While both are absolutist ideologies, the second comes from a far scarier, deeper place of hatred wherein you don't acknowledge the humanity of more than 4 billion people in the world and want them all wiped out regardless of any of their traits.

    I see it as a difference between a father spanking a kid because they delusionally believe that it will teach them discipline and a father beating up a kid because they want to slowly torture them. While both are **** practices and should not be done, I think the first is a lot more morally defensible. At least in the Teja Court.

    I concede i might be completely biased because I have experienced racism but not class warfare tm. For instance, I could probably survive and turn into a lowkey communism hustler singer songwriter prophet in an antifa world for survival. I would not exist in a nazi world.
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  7. #17992
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    I don't think it's fair to call AntiFa 'militant communists' though, that's the point I'm making really.

    They are a group that is violent and hateful, not jsut a bunch of left-wing protesters.

    not all commies, etc etc

  8. #17993
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    I don't think it's fair to call AntiFa 'militant communists' though, that's the point I'm making really.

    They are a group that is violent and hateful, not jsut a bunch of left-wing protesters.

    not all commies, etc etc
    They really are militant communists though. Not all communists etc etc but, like, as a factual description, that is literally what they are. Just like it's fair to call the "Jews will not replace us!" anti-semitic white nationalists. That is literally what they are.

    I've heard more than a few stories of white antifa types with face masks gatecrashing peaceful BLM rallies and starting fights. They're dickheads, simple as, but it's really hard to believe they pose a threat to anyone beyond their immediate physical vicinity—not least because (as that article shows) they don't have any real strategy, or plan, or goal, or anything particular in mind beyond "punching Nazis". On the other hand, imagine being in that synagogue whilst guys with assault rifles surround the building and chant "Jews will not replace us!" and things of that ilk. Or imagine being an orthodox Jew (for example) who is not in Charlottesville, but nonetheless out of nowhere is reading about this **** and seeing people waving around Nazi flags in 2017.
    Last edited by Spark; 18-08-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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  9. #17994
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    They really are militant communists though. Not all communists etc etc but, like, as a factual description, that is literally what they are. Just like it's fair to call the "Jews will not replace us!" anti-semitic white nationalists. That is literally what they are.

    I've heard more than a few stories of white antifa types with face masks gatecrashing peaceful BLM rallies and starting fights. They're dickheads, simple as, but it's really hard to believe they pose a threat to anyone beyond their immediate physical vicinity. On the other hand, imagine being in that synagogue whilst guys with assault rifles surround the building and chant "Jews will not replace us!" and things of that ilk.
    Well, collectively they are anarchists (the bad kind ), socialists, commies etc. But yeah they are, but dismissing them as just that is to me letting them off lightly.

    Agree about the level of intimidation and all that though. They are not exactly fearsome individuals which is why property damage is their MO. Also because they consider property theft anyway I guess.

  10. #17995
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Well, collectively they are anarchists (the bad kind ), socialists, commies etc. But yeah they are, but dismissing them as just that is to me letting them off lightly.

    Agree about the level of intimidation and all that though. They are not exactly fearsome individuals which is why property damage is their MO. Also because they consider property theft anyway I guess.
    Yeah. I can definitely understand people finding them distasteful, but their overall political threat is, like, zero. They're too disorganised and lacking in anything resembling tactics or strategy for that; indeed they seem to actively disdain the idea that one should be tactical or strategic in advancing a particular greater goal, even one which most people would agree with.

  11. #17996
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    When you say wise suggestion, are you referring to me saying people on the left should distance themselves from Antifa?

    Fair old point about Rubin. Incredibly I've seen him called a Nazi on twitter.

    As for people knowing the Nazis are bad - indeed. Tom Woods put a great email out to that effect this week that I'd be happy to share. Also I said somewhere sometime this week about how communism/socialism gets romanticised, which (rightly) doesn't happen with fascism, hence why some are so keen to point out the 'both sides are ****s' argument.
    I'm referring to all people moving away from the extremists as you suggested. People talk as if no one is aware of how bad nazism is, which is why they push it as if there is some order for preference of tyrants - which even if there was, is irrelevant. In reality there is non-stop information, movies and documentaries about the Nazis. It's the most well-established meme but ironically because of that push people have become lazy about recognising the extremism and the machinations of how such an ideology breeds. It all becomes quite clear once you replace the names for simply: people who think they are above the law and legal processes and who rationalise their violence through their own [distorted] morality. Western countries and developed countries in general share that trait: respect for the rule of law, not man. That is a standard no one can forget or risk deviating from because it is maybe the very switch for modern human civilisation.

    There's no more risk of America becoming a Nazi state than there is of it becoming a monarchy right now. And when people like Rubin - who is a gay, married jew, pro-life, etc, - are called Nazi, it is just going to cause more people to wake up and realise that there isn't really a war on Nazis but a war on perception and reality. We should be thankful we live in a time where information is so readily accessible and shared. Many of us grew up in an era where there were only so many tv or radio stations and we heard and read the same **** and were led into so much bullshit via little more than propaganda. I'm not worried about Nazis, I'm worried about the new group of people who think they are the exception and have the divine right to forgo those aforementioned standards because of some justice crusade they've managed to concoct. If you're paying attention (and I know you are mate) you know which side of the isle right now wants to break that standard and which doesn't - which is why there are so many defectors from the leftist agenda these days. Classical liberals I think will be the eventual base for the Democrats.
    Last edited by Ikki; 18-08-2017 at 01:33 PM.
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  12. #17997
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  13. #17998
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Oh and GIMH I'd love to see that email!

    -----

    I wanna see a Shapiro Elder ticket ...seriously though.

    Last edited by Ikki; 18-08-2017 at 10:06 AM.

  14. #17999
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    I think the danger with Antifa is that they'll be sufficiently violent to right wingers who aren't white supremacists that it will unite the right in the way that the supremacists want. Similar situation to the Jihadis if you like. I get the sense that theres way more of them too.
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  15. #18000
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I think the danger with Antifa is that they'll be sufficiently violent to right wingers who aren't white supremacists that it will unite the right in the way that the supremacists want. Similar situation to the Jihadis if you like. I get the sense that theres way more of them too.
    Yeh, Elder says that too and I think it's a legitimate point. This is how these kinds of extremists get into power: when people think half the country (other half) are the crazies.

    Also gotta love WSJ title on Trump Q&A: "Trump Again Blames Both Sides for Charlottesville Violence" ...the agenda is just so obvious it is laughable.



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