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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #17971
    International Captain Niall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    yeah dems are real idiots, no real hope that they can turn things around any time soon...
    I don't care about Statues whatsoever so bomb them all and obviously Trump is a toilet, but attacking Trump on the Nazis just makes more sense than focusing on issues like Statues which are more divisive.

    Dems will have a good 2018, but that is little to be proud of when you consider what happened in 2016 and how Trump keeps imploding.

  2. #17972
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    too early to talk about 2018 chances...and what with gerry-mandering and the fact that repubs traditionally fare better during mid-terms, there are absolutely no guarantees...

  3. #17973
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    Yes my point was more that the combination of all the different factors at play here leaves law enforcement and (responsible) governments in a really difficult bind.
    Sure and I'm not about to defend all police behaviour in a general sense, what we saw with those highway types searching that woman for drugs, I'm quite shocked there's no criminal referral there, can't think of a procedural reason that would save a copper behaving that way in Oz. I'd be very surprised if there weren't more than a few members sympathetic to the Nazis and nor do I think they acted flawlessly. But yeah, there's a balance to be maintained and, as these guys would know, it can be tough to know when to intervene. Little unites disparate groups of people better than a heavy-handed copper or two acting out of turn. From what I've read, as is the case with most protests, they limited intervention to numberous equipped blokes monitoring proceedings and putting more boots in places where protesters didn't stick to the pre-defined areas.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 18-08-2017 at 03:28 AM.

  4. #17974
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I don't think Ikki sees both sides as dangerous though.
    "Look that girl had it coming, if she'd just seen the truth about leftist lies she wouldn't have been run over by a car. He had a permit, after all".

    Seriously, one wonders how many people have to die before some people get it into their heads that these people can be given no political mileage whatsoever. Thus far that the fatalities of this ****, of which 0 can be pinned on antifa (despite their increasing mendacious KPD shtick) has not been much higher has nothing to do with the peaceful nature of white nationalism, which at its most benign calls for an ethnic cleansing the likes of which have not been since since WW2, and everything to do with the FBI being reasonable at their jobs.
    Last edited by Spark; 18-08-2017 at 01:23 AM.
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    citoyens, vouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?

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  5. #17975
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Like, it's amazing how this has been so quickly forgotten: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ms-hate-groups

  6. #17976
    International Coach Gnske's Avatar
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    Only so much irony can be in the news tbh.

  7. #17977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    "Look that girl had it coming, if she'd just seen the truth about leftist lies she wouldn't have been run over by a car. He had a permit, after all".

    Seriously, one wonders how many people have to die before some people get it into their heads that these people can be given no political mileage whatsoever. Thus far that the fatalities of this ****, of which 0 can be pinned on antifa (despite their increasing mendacious KPD shtick) has not been much higher has nothing to do with the peaceful nature of white nationalism, which at its most benign calls for an ethnic cleansing the likes of which have not been since since WW2, and everything to do with the FBI being reasonable at their jobs.
    How dare you impinge on free speech blah blah blah YouTube video

  8. #17978
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Ikki really gone off the deep end here.
    happened months ago. ikki has warped into everything he hates and it's because he's a true believer ideologue, unlike pews, ausage and hendrix.
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  9. #17979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    neither does trump, really, the only difference is why, his reasons are not because of some libertarian fantasy but because they are the absolute core of his base and therefore are not dangerous to him (that is the only thing that really matters in his mind)...
    Trump's behavior is so easy to understand I'm surprised more people don't get this. Most people value others based on a number of complex factors about their other's behavior, morals, actions, etc. Trump has a much simpler worldview:

    - If you have ever done anything to harm Trump's ego, you are bad.
    - Otherwise, you are good. I'll grant Trump that at least he gives people the benefit of the doubt.

    Because Trump's ego is both huge and fragile, it takes very little for a person to fall into the first case. Make a remark critical of something he has ever said, you're bad. Make a joke at his expense — bad. This is exactly why he is constantly talking about loyalty. Loyalty to himself (and loyalty is explicitly one-directional with "You're Fired!" Trump, as his revolving door administration has shown) forms his entire moral sense.

    If you are bad in Trump's eyes, everything you do is bad, everything about you is bad, and you can never be agreed with. If you're good, you're fine — at least for now until you slip up and end up on his bad side. Note that your actual actions and values in the larger world have no bearing on Trump's assessment of you. The alt-right and white surpremacists are fine in Trump's book because they've never done anything harmful to Trump.

    Likewise, reality and truth have no bearing on his behavior. He is constantly in 100% ego repair mode. The actual world beyond the boundary of his ego simply does not exist for Trump.

    The way that press conference shitshow went down is pretty simple:

    - Most journalists are already in Trump's "bad" bucket because they have said things critical of his administration.

    - A journalist asks a leading question, "Why did you wait so long..."

    - Of course, he must disagree with that, so he said he didn't wait long and then manufactured some story about how we wanted to make sure he had all the facts with of course everyone knows is a lie and out of character for him. He just pulled it out of his ass to justify his knee-jerk "I didn't wait too long" disagreement.

    - A journalist asks a question about McCain saying the Charlottesville attacks were the result of the alt-right.

    - McCain has obviously been in Trump's bad bucket for quite some time, so Trump must disagree with this. He does literally the simplest linguistic way of negating the claim and makes up the word "alt-left". Then it goes from there.

    You could write a chatbot that did a convincing emulation of Trump's speech pattern. It's basically:

    - Is the author of the previous statement good or bad?

    - If good, say something nice about them. This is where you get it being an "honor" to meet with Putin, etc.

    - If bad, negate what they said and say that. "Why did you wait so long?" -> "I didn't wait long.". "McCain said the alt-right is behind these attacks." -> "The alt-left is guilty."

    - Then make up a line of reasoning — with no relation to factual reality — that supports that claim. "I needed to wait until the facts were in..." "There were people on both sides with clubs..."
    Seriously, watch him speak. This little algorithm is how he talks all the time.
    https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/com...atues/dlr6e59/
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  10. #17980
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    happened months ago. ikki has warped into everything he hates and it's because he's a true believer ideologue, unlike pews, ausage and hendrix.
    Whoa easy now, I'm yet to hear his take on picking hand pinky tucks in the guitar thread.

  11. #17981
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/u...smtyp=cur&_r=0

    Man, these people are just deadshits.
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  12. #17982
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/u...smtyp=cur&_r=0

    Man, these people are just deadshits.

  13. #17983
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    They really are.

    Aside all else, if they were just opposing the far right then all's fair in love and war, let them all rip each other to shreds for all I care.

    As it is, the reality - as that article acknowledges - is somewhat different.

    And yet people on twitter were actively comparing to them to Allied soliders who did the D-Day landings

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  14. #17984
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    They really are.

    Aside all else, if they were just opposing the far right then all's fair in love and war, let them all rip each other to shreds for all I care.

    As it is, the reality - as that article acknowledges - is somewhat different.

    And yet people on twitter were actively comparing to them to Allied soliders who did the D-Day landings
    I don't think that many people know that much about antifa. They're pretty fringe, as the article suggests (their hostility to mainstream liberalism is real and genuine and more evidence of the "liberals =/= the Left" distinction a few of us keep harping on about), but last weekend and that truly hilarious/offensively stupid statement they put out in response to the journalist who was hospitalised has brought them attention they probably weren't looking for.

    Like I (and I think Ausage?) said before, the Weimar-era KPD comparison looks pretty strong and one they probably don't mind. Which of course overlooks the fact that the KPD were a massive political boon for the Nazis.
    Last edited by Spark; 18-08-2017 at 09:42 AM.

  15. #17985
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Shapiro made that point in the series of tweets I linked to last Sunday.He was 100% right. Utterly condemned the alt right but said there are really ugly scenes between them and AntiFa that are reminscent of the weimar republic, right down to the flags.

    There's zero mileage in a 'who's worse' debate, both groups are an affront to American society. Both filled with hate and intolerance.

    AntiFa should not be equated with the core left (and certainly liberals, like you say) and should be rejected by anyone left-leaning, the same way conservatives, libertarians, neo-cons, anyone grouped into that 'right' segment should reject the alt right. People on the whole need to drop the whole 'got to support the team' schtick, because if your team is the alt right or AntiFa, you're just a massive ****.

    It's not about both sides being as bad as each other, it's that those two sides don't represent two sides of a coin, they represent two segments of humanity that would be best ignored, if only we could. **** em.
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