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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #17791
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    The ideology of communism is not inherently violent. All instances of it being put into practice have been, mostly due to a totalitarian system imposing it as it can't feasibly work in the real world. If some people volunteered to go be communists on Mars it'd be a system that theoretically could work. If entirely isolated to a bubble of willing participants there is no wrongdoing.

    The ideology of "Nazism" is inherently violent, even if you got all the skinheads to go volunteer to live on Mars they'd still practice eugenics, they'd still hate the people on Earth that don't conform to their ideals. Even in a bubble it'd be an extreme.

    On the flip side if you said "Stalinism" instead of just Communism, then you'd still be talking about political extremes that are more or less equivalent. Totalitarian Authoritarians are by definition, **** ****s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Nazi philosophy revolves around racial and genetic superiority... It's vastly different.
    You're missing the wood for the trees: it's just group centric divisions that seek to use prejudices as a means for coming into power. And the Communists were far more brutal, not just to others but their own. It's also a more pervasive philosophy because of the bolded in the quote - people can't see past the surface.
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-08-2017 at 01:21 AM.
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  2. #17792
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    His wider point about the toleration of communism/socialism is spot on whether or not it applies to Sanders. Here in the U.K the shadow chancellor is a dyed in the wool commie, one of his team who's also an MP tweeted out happy birthday Fidel yesterday, you've got Corbyn's rampant support for Chavez and Maduro that I've mentioned once or twice.

    You get the likes of Spark who absolutely gets it and just feels that these people don't have the competence to force socialism within the constraints of the system. And that's fair and good. But beyond that you get people waving the hammer and sickle, joking about the gulag, and justifying the death toll (which I would say is a lot higher than 60 million) by saying it was just state capitalism etc. Even in this thread Athers, a good lad and all, said it could work if we tried it on Mars and that it just happened to have been totalitarian.

    The fact is, I'm not interested in comparing Nazis with socialists, it doesn't matter. Nazis are scum. The point is 99% of us accept that.
    It's not even that complicated. You have people who use these incidents to deflect from ANTIFA. You have them promulgate ideas that would lead to communism unabashedly yet would seek to silence the opposition because they do not agree with them. These are the exact types of people who but for a different residential address may have been there with them.

  3. #17793
    Not Terrible Athlai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You're missing the wood for the trees: it's just group centric divisions that seek to use prejudices as a means for coming into power. And the Communists were far more brutal, not just to others but their own. It's also a more pervasive philosophy because of the bolded in the quote - people can't see past the surface.
    Uh, you're talking about trees here.
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  4. #17794
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Sanders is a communist, if not outwardly then indirectly through his ignorance


  5. #17795
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    What I'm talking about is that at the heart of nazi ideology is a notion of white supremacy, racial superiority, and a willingness to carry out what comes with that. It's inherent in the ideology. The ideology itself is hateful, violent and its dangerous.

    Look, it's not for me to be giving you a history lesson here, but there are plenty of tomes you could refer to which will give you an idea as to what the ideology is all about, and plenty of evidence as to what it leads to. Your attempts to say "But this ideology/ group are a bunch of ****s too" doesn't detract from that point.

    It's really pretty simple. If you're walking around carrying a nazi flag, shouting nazi slogans and propagating nazism, then you don't need to be listened to, you don't need to be tolerated, you don't need to be simply ignored. You're a nazi and need to be ****ed off along with all your mates.

    As I have explained on here a number of times, this isn't an argument around the edges. This isn't a "slippery slope". This isn't about whether taxation is theft or some other libertarian bullshit. These are self-proclaimed nazis. **** them off. Lock them up.
    Last edited by Burgey; 14-08-2017 at 01:33 AM.
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  6. #17796
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I'm not an expert but wasn't he mostly responsible for the NDHS? I'd call that socialising one part of the economy and probably the part best suited to it tbh.
    Oh unquestionably, but given that he was (in the end) a firm advocate for the formation of NATO, and also had police use force on striking unions who he felt were too strongly influenced by the Soviet Union, he wasn't a Communist in any way.

    I think the Democratic Socialist Association of America is more relevant to this discussion anyway:

    What is Democratic Socialism? Q & A - Democratic Socialists of America
    The DSA also just called for the police to be abolished (like, completely), so idk how seriously we should take them.
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  7. #17797
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    What I'm talking about is that at the heart of nazi ideology is a notion of white supremacy, racial superiority, and a willingness to carry out what comes with that. It's inherent in the ideology. The ideology itself is hateful, violent and its dangerous.

    Look, it's not for me to be giving you a history lesson here, but there are plenty of tomes you could refer to which will give you an idea as to what the ideology is all about, and plenty of evidence as to what it leads to. Your attempts to say "But this ideology/ group are a bunch of ****s too" doesn't detract from that point.

    It's really pretty simple. If you're walking around carrying a nazi flag, shouting nazi slogans and propagating nazism, then you don't need to be listened to, you don't need to be tolerated, you don't need to be simply ignored. You're a nazi and need to be ****ed off along with all your mates.

    As I have explained on here a number of times, this isn't an argument around the edges. This isn't a "slippery slope". This isn't about whether taxation is theft or some other libertarian bullshit. These are self-proclaimed nazis. **** them off. Lock them up.
    You're the one trying to create a difference.

    All I see is racists and fascists. When ANTIFA were beating up people who just wanted to listen to a speech, you were quiet as a tit mouse. When ANTIFA come together to defeat Nazis, somehow that passes your moral checklist.

    Even on this incident...the racists have a rally, so what? Are you happier with dead people?
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-08-2017 at 01:39 AM.

  8. #17798
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Agree but if you read what Shapiro said, it pretty much was about the alt right. He referenced AntiFa because people beyond the alt right are taking an 'AntiFa are the enemy' approach, which causes more trouble than is necessary. There was no 'whataboutery' etc. His tweets were completely fair, did anyone read them? Feels like a false discussion has started on the back of, well I don't know.
    No because I don't give a **** about Shapiro or any other YouTube mouthbreathers that Ikki idolises.

  9. #17799
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    It takes a seriously defective moral compass when all you can complain about is Antifa when someone was just murdered.

  10. #17800
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I don't think most people would argue that tankies are anything but ****s, tbh. It should be possible, though, to advocate for left-wing policies like universal healthcare etc etc without being compared to Pol Pot and attempting to Year Zero their countries.
    I definitely understand this frustration. The level of political discourse in western society is pretty abject at the moment.

    But the other side of this is people advocating for right wing policies like small government being called Nazi's. This is important because we have people actively saying state force or vigilante justice is an appropriate response to people who are labelled in that way. Ultimately the only real world outcome of someone calling you a Commie is you ruefully shaking your head. In Burgetopia someone calling me an Nazi will cause me to possibly be arrested or have a mob show up at my house.
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  11. #17801
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    The DSA also just called for the police to be abolished (like, completely), so idk how seriously we should take them.
    The Nazi's are calling for equally ludicrous policies. Why are we taking them seriously?

    I know this seems like whataboutery, but this all started from people saying there was no equivalence between the two sides. Someone died in Charlottesville. How is the Scalise shooting any different?

  12. #17802
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    The Nazi's are calling for equally ludicrous policies. Why are we taking them seriously?

    I know this seems like whataboutery, but this all started from people saying there was no equivalence between the two sides. Someone died in Charlottesville. How is the Scalise shooting any different?
    I don't think they're thinking in terms of actions but the underlying ideology.

    EDIT: Also, I think we should distinguish between extreme and unserious. The Nazi types are quite sincere about what they advocate for IMO, whereas I'm not convinced that the DSA actually wants a society with literally no police.
    Last edited by Spark; 14-08-2017 at 02:30 AM.

  13. #17803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You're the one trying to create a difference.

    All I see is racists and fascists. When ANTIFA were beating up people who just wanted to listen to a speech, you were quiet as a tit mouse. When ANTIFA come together to defeat Nazis, somehow that passes your moral checklist.

    Even on this incident...the racists have a rally, so what? Are you happier with dead people?
    No, I'd be happy with the nazis being in gaol frankly.

  14. #17804
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    No because I don't give a **** about Shapiro or any other YouTube mouthbreathers that Ikki idolises.
    Well like I said last night, that's fine. Not arsed if nobody wants to read them but it's hilarious seeing these posts on the back of me mentioning them. grecian guesses that 'libertarian ****wit' would be defending the alt right, which in itself tells you how deep the knowledge gap is, then you pull out a straw man about the two sides not being equal.

    Shapiro absolutely slated the alt right in his tweets and then said the clashes with AntiFa made for a situation like in the weimar republic which was ugly as sin. He criticised Trump and Bannon, and then finally made a point about how 'innocent' people now confuse the alt right with any right. That's where I diverge with him on this; there's nothing innocent about people posting in threads like this and trying to group any conservative or libertarian in with the alt right. If you're interested enough in politics to post in politics threads then you really ought to know the difference.
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  15. #17805
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    No, I'd be happy with the nazis being in gaol frankly.
    Well of course, especially when you are the one choosing who is a Nazi or not



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