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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #17776
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Sanders pretty openly campaigned as a "Democratic Socialist". Socialism is pretty clearly defined as a stepping stone from Capitalism to Communism. It's not unfair to say that people voted for that. Whether he would (or could) have implemented what he wanted to is a different discussion.
    I mean I like your posting but this is incorrect. It would be incorrect to say people voted for a stepping stone to communism.
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  2. #17777
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    His wider point about the toleration of communism/socialism is spot on whether or not it applies to Sanders. Here in the U.K the shadow chancellor is a dyed in the wool commie, one of his team who's also an MP tweeted out happy birthday Fidel yesterday, you've got Corbyn's rampant support for Chavez and Maduro that I've mentioned once or twice.

    You get the likes of Spark who absolutely gets it and just feels that these people don't have the competence to force socialism within the constraints of the system. And that's fair and good. But beyond that you get people waving the hammer and sickle, joking about the gulag, and justifying the death toll (which I would say is a lot higher than 60 million) by saying it was just state capitalism etc. Even in this thread Athers, a good lad and all, said it could work if we tried it on Mars and that it just happened to have been totalitarian.

    The fact is, I'm not interested in comparing Nazis with socialists, it doesn't matter. Nazis are scum. The point is 99% of us accept that.
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  3. #17778
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    His wider point about the toleration of communism/socialism is spot on whether or not it applies to Sanders. Here in the U.K the shadow chancellor is a dyed in the wool commie, one of his team who's also an MP tweeted out happy birthday Fidel yesterday, you've got Corbyn's rampant support for Chavez and Maduro that I've mentioned once or twice.

    You get the likes of Spark who absolutely gets it and just feels that these people don't have the competence to force socialism within the constraints of the system. And that's fair and good. But beyond that you get people waving the hammer and sickle, joking about the gulag, and justifying the death toll (which I would say is a lot higher than 60 million) by saying it was just state capitalism etc. Even in this thread Athers, a good lad and all, said it could work if we tried it on Mars and that it just happened to have been totalitarian.

    The fact is, I'm not interested in comparing Nazis with socialists, it doesn't matter. Nazis are scum. The point is 99% of us accept that.
    I don't think most people would argue that tankies are anything but ****s, tbh. It should be possible, though, to advocate for left-wing policies like universal healthcare etc etc without being compared to Pol Pot and attempting to Year Zero their countries.
    Last edited by Spark; 14-08-2017 at 12:37 AM.
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  4. #17779
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Yeah, but I mean Hitler built the autobahns and all, so maybe he wasn't all bad either.
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  5. #17780
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    His wider point about the toleration of communism/socialism is spot on whether or not it applies to Sanders.
    Socialism is tolerated because it is a respectable ideology and constitutes a large part of Western policy and social structure.

    Communism is marginal at best.
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  6. #17781
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Yeah, but I mean Hitler built the autobahns and all, so maybe he wasn't all bad either.
    Heh, but this is basically the crux of why people like me can't believe it when we see MPs tweet things like 'happy birthday Fidel'

    Apparently Ken Livingstone (may have been someone else) said of Castro, 'he wasn't very good on LGBT rights but on the things that mattered...'

  7. #17782
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    Socialism is tolerated because it is a respectable ideology and constitutes a large part of Western policy and social structure.

    Communism is marginal at best.
    You may think it's respectable, that for me is the problem

  8. #17783
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Sanders pretty openly campaigned as a "Democratic Socialist".
    This is what he called himself, but the policies he ran on didn't actually fit with this at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I think almost all of Sanders' policies were absolutely ****ing terrible, but they were still very much "lets have the government step in to fix all the things I don't like about capitalism" (ie. social democracy) as opposed to "lets all vote to nationalise all the things" (ie. actual democratic socialism).

    I think Sanders himself actually lies in a space even further left than democratic socialism, but his policy platform didn't actually reflect that.
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  9. #17784
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    You may think it's respectable, that for me is the problem
    Im going to assume we have vastly different ideas of what socialism is......

  10. #17785
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Democratic socialism is more or less what Clement Attlee stood for. Was he a revolutionary Marxist who burned down democracy?

    Also, the bolded is only true in Marxist analysis. There are plenty of non-Marxist leftists who would not agree, even if they cite Marx as an influence.
    I'm not an expert but wasn't he mostly responsible for the NDHS? I'd call that socialising one part of the economy and probably the part best suited to it tbh.

    I think the Democratic Socialist Association of America is more relevant to this discussion anyway:

    What is Democratic Socialism? Q & A - Democratic Socialists of America

    We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.
    In the short term we can’t eliminate private corporations, but we can bring them under greater democratic control.
    Although a long-term goal of socialism is to eliminate all but the most enjoyable kinds of labor, we recognize that unappealing jobs will long remain. These tasks would be spread among as many people as possible rather than distributed on the basis of class, race, ethnicity, or gender, as they are under capitalism.
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  11. #17786
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Months ago, and several times in between, Antifa riots were posted and no one gave a **** - in fact, people even complaining that a fringe was being given this much attention. At a similar time, when Richard Spencer was punched, people also condoned it.

    You have racists and fascists coming together and these people still want to play identity politics. Absolutely no shame at all.
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  12. #17787
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    I mean I like your posting but this is incorrect. It would be incorrect to say people voted for a stepping stone to communism.
    I wouldn't say they knowingly voted for it.

  13. #17788
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Oh and Shapiro basically left Breitbart because of the direction it was going in. Too heavily on the Trump train. Why the **** would he bear any reponsibility for the alt right when he despises them?

    And he didn't blame AntiFa for yesterday ether. He did criticise them, is that allowed?
    Andrew Breitbart who founded Breitbart also founded the Huffington Post - lets not forget how many of our posters here love the latter website. Breitbart is not a Nazi website as some ignorant people would like to claim, it's just a response to what is CNN, MSNBC, HuffPro, etc.

    As for Shapiro, it's hilarious when he gets called alt-right when even the ADL said that no one got more anti-semite hate online than him.

    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
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    Last edited by Ikki; 14-08-2017 at 01:04 AM.

  14. #17789
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    This is what he called himself, but the policies he ran on didn't actually fit with this at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I think almost all of Sanders' policies were absolutely ****ing terrible, but they were still very much "lets have the government step in to fix all the things I don't like about capitalism" (ie. social democracy) as opposed to "lets all vote to nationalise all the things" (ie. actual democratic socialism).

    I think Sanders himself actually lies in a space even further left than democratic socialism, but his policy platform didn't actually reflect that.
    Yeah I get that he didn't go to the election with nationalisation of industry as a key platform, I still think the fact that he went to the election under that moniker is significant. I'd say there'd be as few people who knew what Democratic Socialism was as there were people who did more than skim his policy platform.

  15. #17790
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    It's impossible to have moral equivalence between nazis and those opposing them, because one side ARE NAZIS FFS! Jesus ****ing Christ I can't believe this ****.
    Nazis were racists/fascists. ANTIFA and Alt-Right are basically the same thing. So what are you even talking about here?
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-08-2017 at 01:08 AM.



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