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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #17026
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Minnesota is a shall issue state which allows concealed carry. When buying a gun, this usually means a training session or two and, although not legally required, letting the member know as soon as you can that you're in possession of a firearm is pretty common advice. Now, I don't know what training Castile got but there is absolutely no way to pin what happened on him.

    One of the saddest aspects of the video remains the way his girlfriend snapped into obedience to keep the officer calm. Every black person who saw that footage understands and probably had a shiver go up their spine at that. Lady was inhumanly calm considering what she saw, probably saved her own life.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 23-06-2017 at 12:16 AM.
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  2. #17027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnske View Post
    The lesson from that was, never admit you have a gun in your car regardless of the legality unless you want to die.

    I mean the speed of which the cop went to absolute panic mode and absolutely unloading on Castile was remarkable.
    The officer admitted he encounters lots of people who carry and they're all upfront about it, keep their hands on the steering wheel, tell the officer where the firearm is etc. His defense here basically came down to the claim that Castile was not doing any of those things after telling him he was carrying, and failed to stop moving or reaching for it when told to do so.

    Obviously we now know he was just reaching for his wallet, but I think it's basically Castile allegedly not following instructions which convinced the jury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    I'm sympathetic to the "American cops have an incredibly difficult job" argument and think that racially charged rhetoric makes the issue much worse, but that cop being exonerated clearly demonstrates something needs to change with the law. The bar for a cop "feeling threatened" is set way too low.
    Nothig wrong with the law, but maybe the jury instruction on what's considered culpable negligence could be stricter.

  3. #17028
    Request Your Custom Title Now! OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    “I thought, I was gonna die,” Yanez later recounted about the moments leading up to the shooting, “and I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me
    This is just...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNT View Post
    You need to clap a cows c**t over your head and get a woolly bull to f**k some sense into you.

  4. #17029
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Seriously...
    citoyens, vouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?


  5. #17030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnske View Post
    Well you can racialize it all you like but it's clear from the footage the cop had no gumption or steel required to be a cop.
    sure i agree about the dipshit cop but if you don't think castile's race was what prompted the panic, you don't really understand what happens on a daily basis here in the u.s...

  6. #17031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    sure i agree about the dipshit cop but if you don't think castile's race was what prompted the panic, you don't really understand what happens on a daily basis here in the u.s...

    71. In his interview, Officer Yanez said the driver appeared to match the description of one
    of the robbery suspects.

    a. Officer Yanez said, "I couldn't make out the passenger. But I knew the passenger
    had a hat on. And I couldn't make out if it was a guy or girl I just knew that they
    were both African American and the driver uh appeared to me that he appeared
    to match the uh physical description of the one of our suspects from the strongarm
    robbery, gunpoint/'160

    b. Officer Yanez said, "I can't remember the height, weight but I remember that it
    was, the male had dreadlocks around shoulder length. Or longer hair around
    shoulder length. And, urn it wasn't specified it was corn rows or dreadiocks or
    straight hair. Um and then just kind of distinct facial features with like a kind of
    like a wide set nose and uh I saw that in the driver of the vehicle."161

    c. Officer Yanez said he radioed Officer Kauser and "told him that the driver
    appeared to/ match the physical description of our suspect from the strong-arm
    robbery and I told him that I wanted to wait for Officer, I told Officer Kauser that
    wanted to wait for him um for backup. Uh just in case cuz I didn t know who I
    was pulling over,"162

    72. No reasonable police officer would have believed that Mr. Castile matched the
    description of one of the robbery suspect.

    a. Officer Yanez's only opportunity to observe Mr. Castile was while Mr. Castile was
    driving his vehicle which limited Officer Yanez's ability to observe more than Mr.
    160 Yanez interview at 10.
    161 Yanez interview at 10,
    162 Yanez interview at 11,
    46
    Castile's upper shoulders and head and limited the amount of time that he had
    to observe Mr. Castile as Mr. Castile's vehicle was driving past him.

    b. Officer Yanez acknowledged at the time of the stop, he did not know the
    suspect's height, weight, whether the suspect had dreadlocks/ corn row or
    straight hair.

    c. Indeed, the oniy possible means of identification that Officer Yanez could have
    reiied upon was that:
    1.) Mr. Castile was black.
    2.) Mr. Castiie was a male.
    This is from the prosecutions expert ftr, but it really does sum it up.

  7. #17032
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm missing something here but whilst the Castile shooting is tragic, I don't understand how anyone can pass judgement on it definitively. People are saying the dashcam video proves Yanez was negligent and whilst I think he was, not to the extent some people are making out. Castile tells Yanez he has possession of a firearm, (and moves his hands reaching for something - as confirmed by the woman in the car in the aftermath), and Yanez responds saying, "well don't reach for it then, don't pull it out." Castile says "I'm not pulling it out," and Yanez frantically repeats "don't pull it out." Yanez appears to reach inside, and then begins firing.

    Now unless you have x-ray vision how can we know exactly what motion Castile made? Based on what I've seen it appears he was reaching inside his pocket. When you tell a cop you have a firearm the last thing you do is then go reaching for anything on your person. When an officer then gives you a command, you follow it. To continue reaching for your licence, your registration, a stick of gum or whatever, in that situation can be, as it turns out, a fatal mistake.

    I think Yanez was on a hair trigger. But I also think what Castile presumably did, was extremely stupid.

    If anyone has anything definitive I may have missed, I'm open to being corrected on these points.

  8. #17033
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Yeah you are missing something. Like I said, in shall issue states, the usual practice when you receive your license at the local sherrif's office is to give license holders some training in what to say and do within the laws. In Minnesota, you don't actually have to even advise the police officer you have a gun so Castile probably thought he was already going above and beyond by saying he had one then reaching for his wallet where he had his driver's and CCW license, providing both simultaneously is certainly one thing which is pretty consistently taught. One step he missed might be to advise the officer he was carrying then ask "How would you like me to proceed?" but I'm fairly sure that's not even close to uniform advice and even treated as paranoia by some in the context of a place where you don't need to breathe a word about the fact you have a gun in your car.

    Anyway, the point of the training is that when being pulled over, that the everything down to the dialogue is as stage-managed as possible until it's under control. Castile, almost to the letter, followed the script but still ended up dead. So it's possible they may add some more to the training but, ya know, bit too late for this fella.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 23-06-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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  9. #17034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    The officer admitted he encounters lots of people who carry and they're all upfront about it, keep their hands on the steering wheel, tell the officer where the firearm is etc. His defense here basically came down to the claim that Castile was not doing any of those things after telling him he was carrying, and failed to stop moving or reaching for it when told to do so.
    His hands were on the wheel according to the officer's own statement, though. It is, however, a little bit telling that by the copper's own words, he mooted the possibility that the guy in the car was a dealer and had a gun for protection. Now, I'm not suggesting he definitely believed that because of the black guy with the weed and whatnot but it's interesting his mind went there prior to running the guy's plates or his record. That said, it's a tough job and it's nature does lead one to bias on occasion.

    The culpable negligence part is interesting. I'd imagine where a police officer is performing his duties, that'd be bloody tough to prove. I'm guessing, short of said copper employing every racial epithet whilst emptying a clip in someone then running them over with his car, this was generally going to result in acquittal.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 23-06-2017 at 11:52 AM.

  10. #17035
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    Heh, the statute in Minnesota sure mentions wildlife a lot.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.205

    609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
    A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

    (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or
    (2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or
    (3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or
    (4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or
    (5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.
    If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.

  11. #17036
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post


    Seriously...
    Came here to post this. You couldn't make it up.

  12. #17037
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Yeah you are missing something. Like I said, in shall issue states, the usual practice when you receive your license at the local sherrif's office is to give license holders some training in what to say and do within the laws. In Minnesota, you don't actually have to even advise the police officer you have a gun so Castile probably thought he was already going above and beyond by saying he had one then reaching for his wallet where he had his driver's and CCW license, providing both simultaneously is certainly one thing which is pretty consistently taught. One step he missed might be to advise the officer he was carrying then ask "How would you like me to proceed?" but I'm fairly sure that's not even close to uniform advice and even treated as paranoia by some in the context of a place where you don't need to breathe a word about the fact you have a gun in your car.

    Anyway, the point of the training is that when being pulled over, that the everything down to the dialogue is as stage-managed as possible until it's under control. Castile, almost to the letter, followed the script but still ended up dead. So it's possible they may add some more to the training but, ya know, bit too late for this fella.
    I see. Well I'm not in a position to argue this as I know very little about the laws and protocols regarding firearms in this jurisdiction.

    However, I still think it's incredibly foolish to reach for something in your pockets immediately after stating you have a firearm, if in fact that's how it transpired. Maybe that part of the training needs to be remedied. As you said though, too late for this guy and his family.

  13. #17038
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Yeah cause if someone is going to shoot you in that situation, they usually start by announcing that they have a firearm.
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  14. #17039
    U19 Vice-Captain Munificent_Fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    Yeah cause if someone is going to shoot you in that situation, they usually start by announcing that they have a firearm.
    I agree that is not the typical behaviour of a person likely to shoot you. Doesn't change the fact that he continued to reach in his pocket after he was told not to.

  15. #17040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munificent_Fool View Post
    I agree that is not the typical behaviour of a person likely to shoot you. Doesn't change the fact that he continued to reach in his pocket after he was told not to.
    Agreed, if things did transpire the way he claims (and I don't think it was disputed by his Girlfriend either), then it wasn't a smart or the right move.

    I feel it still didn't justify the officer unloading 7 bullets into Castile though.



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