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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #16681
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    I mean if—if!—the NYT is right about today's story then that is a pretty black-and-white impeachable offence, right?
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  2. #16682
    Hall of Fame Member social's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I mean if—if!—the NYT is right about today's story then that is a pretty black-and-white impeachable offence, right?
    If it was anyone else, he'd be sacked and possibly tried for treason BUT as the President, he has discretionary power about what to reveal and to whom to reveal it.

    However, he can potentially be done for failure to uphold his presidential oath in regards to doing the best thing by the country

    At the very least, there should be a full investigation

    The Comey case is actually far more straightforward as he could potentially be tried for impeachment for attempting to pervert the course of justice

    In all cases it requires the support of the majority of the upper house which is controlled by the Reps
    Last edited by social; 16-05-2017 at 11:51 PM.

  3. #16683
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by social View Post
    If it was anyone else, he'd be sacked and possibly tried for treason BUT as the President, he has discretionary power about what to reveal and to whom to reveal it.

    However, he can potentially be done for failure to uphold his presidential oath in regards to doing the best thing by the country

    At the very least, there should be a full investigation

    The Comey case is actually far more straightforward as he could potentially be tried for impeachment for attempting to pervert the course of justice

    In all cases it requires the support of the majority of the upper house which is controlled by the Reps
    On further reading "impeachable" is a fairly subjective standard anyway; in theory they could do it whether they wanted. Ross Douthat is also putting up the 25th amendment as an option.

  4. #16684
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    A President says, 'I hope that you can let this go' to Comey and apparently this is an impeachable offence? I'm not so much embarrassed for Trump but for the American political process and the political climate in general.

    If the US isn't engaging in some kind of protracted Civil War then I'll eat my hat. All that appears to be missing are the bullets and hand-grenades and not much more.


    Will Trump be impeached? It’s less likely than some Democrats are suggesting.

    ......Let's be clear: Trump hasn't been accused of any specific crimes. His opponents say he's unfit for office, but that's a judgment call, not a standard by which presidents can be impeached.*The Constitution states that “The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b7802a2c4c47


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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    This is a bullshit fallback and I'm not having it, it's completely irrelevant.

    You haven't thought this situation through, you're applying a blanket pro-liberty defense when it doesn't apply here. You've deliberately ignored i) the lens in which people are viewed as historical figures in the context of particular circumstance (i.e., a general of the South who upheld abhorrent principles, NOT loving father of 2.5 children and a dog, great neighbour who keeps his lawn mown) and ii) the reality that this is a state-owned monument, NOT privately owned property with people exercising their free will to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

    The logical extent of your arguments have been that noone can judge anyone for anything, and that people can do whatever they want with other people's property...
    Now you're starting to sound like a cheap moralising Republican who thinks that his moralising is so superior to everyone else that abortions and the like should made illegal when it's really none of the State's business.

  6. #16686
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    A President says, 'I hope that you can let this go' to Comey and apparently this is an impeachable offence? I'm not so much embarrassed for Trump but for the American political process and the political climate in general.

    If the US isn't engaging in some kind of protracted Civil War then I'll eat my hat. All that appears to be missing are the bullets and hand-grenades and not much more.
    You are aware of obstruction of justice was how Nixon got done, yes?

    Of course, this all depends on whether the memo (a) exists, (b) says what the story says it does and (c) is an accurate reflection of the conversation. In theory this shouldn't be too hard to confirm one way or the other.
    Last edited by Spark; 17-05-2017 at 01:28 AM.

  7. #16687
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Anyway, anyone else see that mad video of Erdogan's thugs beating up protestors outside the embassy?
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  8. #16688
    Request Your Custom Title Now! OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Anyway, anyone else see that mad video of Erdogan's thugs beating up protestors outside the embassy?
    Yeah. Crazy stuff. Security in a tough spot too. They can't beat up Erdogan's guys so all they could really do is hope it stopped.
    Last edited by OverratedSanity; 17-05-2017 at 01:39 AM.
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  9. #16689
    International Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/i/videos/tweet/864631567972540417

    Yeah, this sort of stuff is rage inducing. They're kicking defenceless people on the ground, including women.

  10. #16690
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    https://www.lawfareblog.com/another-...-investigation

    Historically, obstruction of justice articles of impeachment do elaborate a pattern of conduct. The first article of impeachment against Richard Nixon, for instance, included making false statements to investigators, withholding evidence, counseling witnesses to lie or give misleading testimony, and “interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States [and] the Federal Bureau of Investigation.”

    The critical point is that impeachment for obstruction of justice is ultimately not just a legal question; it’s also a political question, albeit a political question highly inflected by the law and often discussed in the language of the law. The boundaries of the impeachable offense are not coextensive with the boundaries of the criminal law. There are things that are not criminal that are certainly impeachable, and there are crimes that are generally regarded as too trivial to trigger the Constitution’s standard in Article II § 4 of “Treason, Bribery, and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” The great constitutional scholar Charles Black, in an excellent volume entitled, Impeachment: A Handbook written during the Watergate era, describes this point in vivid detail.

    So the real question boils down to this: Does the pattern of conduct that is emerging, in the view of a majority of the House of Representatives and a two-thirds majority of the Senate, constitute an obstruction of justice of a type that is grounds for impeachment and removal?
    Either way, this is going to run. Increasingly coming around to the view that Comey put this out there as bait so House Oversight would use its subpoena powers on his memos.

    EDIT: I'm reminded that this is not the first time a James Comey memo of high-level administration officials has been politically significant after the fact.
    Last edited by Spark; 17-05-2017 at 04:14 AM.

  11. #16691
    Hall of Fame Member hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5181 View Post
    https://twitter.com/i/videos/tweet/864631567972540417

    Yeah, this sort of stuff is rage inducing. They're kicking defenceless people on the ground, including women.
    Where was that?
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  12. #16692
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Is it just me, or did a lot of people have a general sentiment at the time of the coup that the whole thing was bad, and Erdogan holding power was a good thing? Cause it certainly felt like a thing at the time, and I hate the fact the coup failed.
    Last edited by NZTailender; 17-05-2017 at 06:34 AM.
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  13. #16693
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    My feeling—well, at least my personal opinion which was shared by the people I talked to—was that the coup was a response to bad situation that would almost certainly make it worse, regardless of how it played out.

  14. #16694
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    This is a bullshit fallback and I'm not having it, it's completely irrelevant.

    You haven't thought this situation through, you're applying a blanket pro-liberty defense when it doesn't apply here. You've deliberately ignored i) the lens in which people are viewed as historical figures in the context of particular circumstance (i.e., a general of the South who upheld abhorrent principles, NOT loving father of 2.5 children and a dog, great neighbour who keeps his lawn mown) and ii) the reality that this is a state-owned monument, NOT privately owned property with people exercising their free will to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

    The logical extent of your arguments have been that noone can judge anyone for anything, and that people can do whatever they want with other people's property...
    You seem oblivious to the possibility that you are simply projecting your own values on Lee and then using that to pick a side to justify the nonsense and hysteria surrounding the removal his statue. I don't think you're appreciating what is happening in America in the political sphere as it is a cultural war now - and this hubbub is just a symbol for that. You have amalgamated the view of 'people' as if there is only one correct group and wish to dictate to others how they have to view history and how historical figures must be treated.

    As I said before: if Americans start using their political power to do this, then where does it end? It's no wonder America has devolved as a nation whereby the flawed men that brought about liberty are now the caricatures that are used to fight against 'too much liberty' - as if there is a threat. You also ignored my previous statement: I don't care if Lee was an abysmal character himself - let's just say he was Hitler. Whether his statue exists or not doesn't support the creation of a new Nazi state or symbolise values people hold, and it certainly isn't a revision of history that all Americans are onboard with.

    The current divide is predicated on and against the historical pride certain people have of white figures. Can you imagine people using their state powers to remove statues/appreciations of MLK? And before you try to lecture me on the difference between MLK and Lee, let me just say that as important of a figure as he was there is ample reason to be ideologically against him - like him supporting Zionists or thinking being gay was not natural but a cultural quirk you had to fix yourself of via therapy. Would you have the same attitude then? I highly doubt it. I doubt you will even entertain a different enough perspective to regard him as a character that was flawed to then get to the meat of the discussion which is whether people should use political tools to antagonise their opposition. If you think this is helping heal the country and bring people together you are mistaken and what more you are being distracted.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-05-2017 at 11:57 AM.
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  15. #16695
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    Did anyone post this? The comments are hilarious...just read them.




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