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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #16621
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Tbf that was the uniform back when you were at school wasn't it?
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  2. #16622
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Good from you.

  3. #16623
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend _Ed_'s Avatar
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  4. #16624
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Napoleon was awful, I didn't think this was controversial.
    We're talking morally awful here, right? I'd agree there, but he was certainly a remarkable military leader and changed the world in many ways and so on. And his legacy is not uncomplicated.

    There's a Napoleon Street in Sydney, and while I do think that's pretty damn weird, I think it's a good example of why the whole movement to tear down statues and rename buildings to avoid commemorating bad or questionable people from the past is a bit weird. Basically any figure in history is deeply problematic in many ways, and while you could argue that Lee was pretty damn bad, I don't think he's categorically worse than a lot of other historical figures that are commemorated in different parts of the world. People often use the example of Hitler, but the Nazis are pretty unique in the sense that they are universally reviled and nobody really wants to think of them as historical antecedents or examine them as complicated people etc. If you're going to tear down a Lee statue, why not rename Napoleon Street, basically every building at every college or hospital named after a famous developer or politician, military things named after famous generals and so on. They're all **** in some way.

    I don't really have a problem with Lee specifically since he was so particularly awful, but I guess I do draw the line somewhere on the question of how much we should avoid memorializing historical figures because they were bad people.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 15-05-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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  5. #16625
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    I too would generally err on the side of not going around reassessing historical figures (outside living memory) by today's standards. There would be some exceptions, but generally statues and other relics are just part of the background milieu we live in.

    Don't know much about Lee, though in a brief reading he doesn't seem to have many/any redeeming features. If a council agrees that continuing to display the statue of Lee is an implicit endorsement and so want to move it to a museum, placing it firmly in the past rather than the present, then I think that's fine as a compromise.

  6. #16626
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    Quote Originally Posted by straw man View Post
    Don't know much about Lee, though in a brief reading he doesn't seem to have many/any redeeming features. If a council agrees that continuing to display the statue of Lee is an implicit endorsement and so want to move it to a museum, placing it firmly in the past rather than the present, then I think that's fine as a compromise.
    Lee was a legitimately excellent general (though he was lined up against a number of highly incompetent adversaries during the first 2 years of the war). The fact that the result of the civil war was ever in any doubt was largely down to his astonishing victories at places like Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville (the later really was spectacular, the confederate army was outnumbered 2 - 1 and managed to win largely due to Lee's brilliant tactics). Of course, the outcome of the war was largely decided by his spectacular brain melt on the 3rd day at Gettysburg, so he was by no means perfect.

    He also personally disliked slavery - though as can be seen from watson's quote was perfectly willing to tolerate it. And most people who knew him considered to be a kind and rational figure. I don't think Lee was a bad person. He was a patriot (to his state at least) and his views on racial politics were probably fairly centrist for his time (though he opposed extending the franchise to blacks after the war).

    I can see why historically he was a revered figure, especially in Virginia. I can also see why people may no longer consider him to be a figure worthy of idolatry.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 15-05-2017 at 08:57 PM.
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  7. #16627
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    For me the thing is that while we can have a fairly nuanced discussion here about Lee's views relative to his time, the people clamouring for his statue to be removed aren't like that. Spark used the word "facists" and I think it's a pretty apt term. They're just interested in imposing their cultural will by screaming buzzwords we have a hard time saying no to. I think there's very few people (outside Virginia) who care that a civil war general's statue is being removed more than they have a fundamental objection to the motivations of the people involved in it.
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  8. #16628
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Lee was a legitimately excellent general (though he was lined up against a number of highly incompetent adversaries during the first 2 years of the war). The fact that the result of the civil war was ever in any doubt was largely down to his astonishing victories at places like Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville (the later really was spectacular, the confederate army was outnumbered 2 - 1 and managed to win largely due to Lee's brilliant tactics). Of course, the outcome of the war was largely decided by his spectacular brain melt on the 3rd day at Gettysburg, so he was by no means perfect.

    He also personally disliked slavery - though as can be seen from watson's quote was perfectly willing to tolerate it. And most people who knew him considered to be a kind and rational figure. I don't think Lee was a bad person. He was a patriot (to his state at least) and his views on racial politics were probably fairly centrist for his time (though he opposed extending the franchise to blacks after the war).

    I can see why historically he was a revered figure, especially in Virginia. I can also see why people may no longer consider him to be a figure worthy of idolatry.
    Good post. Seems like someone has studied US history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Of course, the outcome of the war was largely decided by his spectacular brain melt on the 3rd day at Gettysburg, so he was by no means perfect.
    Sounds familiar. Did he pack the offside field while his troops spent all day bowling half volleys on leg?

  9. #16629
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Spikey's Avatar
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  10. #16630
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    bump
    Just part of the man's genius.

    Today Spicer announced the President has proclaimed Police Appreciation Day or something, which has apparently been around since 1962. I saw his tweet and the replies to it from supporters thinking this is a great idea.

    Unrelated, can someone tell me who all the blue tick people are who immediately swamp Trump's tweets with mile long threads which are as boring as **** to read? They do it in like two minutes or something. Must be a Cribb-like bot or something. It's like reading an Ikki post without the hour long video.
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  11. #16631
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend _Ed_'s Avatar
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  12. #16632
    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    Is Trump a Russian spy or are Americans paranoid?

  13. #16633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    For me the thing is that while we can have a fairly nuanced discussion here about Lee's views relative to his time, the people clamouring for his statue to be removed aren't like that. Spark used the word "facists" and I think it's a pretty apt term. They're just interested in imposing their cultural will by screaming buzzwords we have a hard time saying no to. I think there's very few people (outside Virginia) who care that a civil war general's statue is being removed more than they have a fundamental objection to the motivations of the people involved in it.
    I think Spark was referring to the Alt-righters who turned up to protest the statue's removal.

  14. #16634
    International Coach straw man's Avatar
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    @Ed. Barely even worth typing that no, there will not be any consistency or principle shown here. Don't hold your breath or well, you'll suffocate.

    One adviser who often speaks to the president said the conversation was likely freewheeling in the Oval Office, and he probably wanted to impress the officials.

    "He doesn't really know any boundaries. He doesn't think in those terms," this adviser said. "He doesn't sometimes realize the implications of what he's saying. I don't think it was his intention in any way to share any classified information. He wouldn't want to do that."
    Hey Russians you guyz will be so impressed I got all the secret agents.. .and wait til you see my new airplane pyeow pyeow!

    The man is a child.

  15. #16635
    Request Your Custom Title Now! OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    > Trump seemed to be boasting about his inside knowledge of the looming threat. “I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day,”
    He's memeing now isn't he?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNT View Post
    You need to clap a cows c**t over your head and get a woolly bull to f**k some sense into you.



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