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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #16081
    International Captain indiaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    You don't actually believe the propaganda and fake news vomited by the Chinese government do you? The fact is, nothing much has changed politically since Tiananmen Square, and 100s of millions of people live as virtual slaves in a congested, polluted hell hole. The pollution is so bad that it even effects the West Coast of the USA. About a third of the air pollution in San Francisco supposedly comes from the industrial heartland of China.

    Smog In Western U.S. Starts Out As Pollution In Asia, Study Says : The Two-Way : NPR

    Point being, if there is a way of improving the quality of life for Chinese people then the current model is definitely not it.
    Quote Originally Posted by duffer View Post
    Heh.

  2. #16082
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    If an ideological system can't last in the real world without being forcibly overrun, that surely is "it can't work" by definition?

    I would also strongly, strongly disagree with the last point for the same reason btw.
    History has tended to not be kind to ideologies that reject the use of force, hence Libertarianism only being implemented sporadically. I don't see how that's a black mark against it, nor a factor that should be considered if determining whether it would work if implemented.
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  3. #16083
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    You don't actually believe the propaganda and fake news vomited by the Chinese government do you? The fact is, nothing much has changed politically since Tiananmen Square, and 100s of millions of people live as virtual slaves in a congested, polluted hell hole. The pollution is so bad that it even effects the West Coast of the USA. About a third of the air pollution in San Francisco supposedly comes from the industrial heartland of China.

    Smog In Western U.S. Starts Out As Pollution In Asia, Study Says : The Two-Way : NPR

    Point being, if there is a way of improving the quality of life for Chinese people then the current model is definitely not it.
    And yet people continue to willingly pour into the cities from the countryside in enormous quantities.

    It's not ideal, but if you're a dirt poor subsistence farmer breaking your back just so your entire family doesn't starve, pollution is not a large price to pay.
    citoyens, vouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?

  4. #16084
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    History has tended to not be kind to ideologies that reject the use of force, hence Libertarianism only being implemented sporadically. I don't see how that's a black mark against it, nor a factor that should be considered if determining whether it would work if implemented.
    If an ideology being implemented is invariably followed by or evolves to a state where you have rulers who got power and hence use power primarily through force and violence then that's definitely a black mark. It's what I regard as the main black mark against "pure" Marxism, for example.
    Anil likes this.


  5. #16085
    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    You don't actually believe the propaganda and fake news vomited by the Chinese government do you? The fact is, nothing much has changed politically since Tiananmen Square, and 100s of millions of people live as virtual slaves in a congested, polluted hell hole. The pollution is so bad that it even effects the West Coast of the USA. About a third of the air pollution in San Francisco supposedly comes from the industrial heartland of China.

    Smog In Western U.S. Starts Out As Pollution In Asia, Study Says : The Two-Way : NPR

    Point being, if there is a way of improving the quality of life for Chinese people then the current model is definitely not it.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  6. #16086
    International Coach Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    didn't you know, he has the inside scoop on everything that is actually happening in china...

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    Quote Originally Posted by indiaholic View Post
    Scratch below the surface and it's not difficult to realise that the glossy story of Globalisation told by the corporate media involves a lot of lies and cover-up.

    Smog is one horrendous problem, benzene poisoning on a grand scale is another.

    This short video is really worth a look.




    How China is Screwing Over its Poisoned Factory Workers
    https://www.wired.com/2015/04/inside...ories/#slide-1
    Last edited by watson; 01-04-2017 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #16088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    And yet people continue to willingly pour into the cities from the countryside in enormous quantities.

    It's not ideal, but if you're a dirt poor subsistence farmer breaking your back just so your entire family doesn't starve, pollution is not a large price to pay.
    Just saying that the last 30 years could have been done a million times better than it was.

  9. #16089
    I can't believe I ate the whole thing NZTailender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Ideal(s) exist in libertarianism but they serve to empower the individual and not collectives. Since we are all individuals people do not argue against individual rights, by and large, however we do so with regards to groups (identity politics) all the time and some of us even do it with the misguided belief that it is for the benefit of all.

    Thinking about this issue for many years I have come to the realisation that our differences are largely down to perspective and our misunderstanding of perspective and reality which can be separate and often are. That's why fascists, communists, and all the people in between and on the sides who end up harming more people than they help originate from the same misguided notion that what they are doing is intrinsically good and without debate wish to usher in their goodness. This extends to you regardless of whether you are a marxist or even someone like me who claims to be a libertarian. We all have to be vigilant to define ourselves and our reality properly. Simply stating that there is a collective responsibility as a given isn't living in reality.

    As you read this, breath, eat and sleep you may appreciate that your consciousness controls your body. Living in our delusions we try our best to widen our influence and we spin narratives to justify them and others sometimes follow. We will spin these narratives as wide and as far as possible and that we have governments we don't trust yet think we need is precisely the kind of cognitive dissonance you have to have for your own self to be an unwitting cog in someone else's delusion. You are responsible for yourself because your consciousness has inherited no other body to control. That is reality. From there we can build solutions living in reality, and one of them is the free exchange of ideas, as well as goods and services. This will then become a mechanism for the rest of society as we face ideas and we determine their utility based on how many individuals engage or disengage with them. Even if someone is misguided, let their delusion be their own downfall or those that follow the same line of thinking. We are so averse to failure without recognising that without the balancing nature of something undesirable occurring, we will not be able to recognise what really is desirable as we will not have a point of reference/comparison. Because only in a delusion can you stave off reality, which is the eventuation that something wrong can/will happen.
    This has just been a round about way of saying "well I'm just more woke than you"
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  10. #16090
    International Captain indiaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Scratch below the surface and it's not difficult to realise that the glossy story of Globalisation told by the corporate media involves a lot of lies and cover-up.

    Smog is one horrendous problem, benzene poisoning on a grand scale is another.

    This short video is really worth a look.

    **** off asshole. Me and my family came out of subsistence farming due to globalisation. So stop preaching about **** you don't understand.
    zorax likes this.

  11. #16091
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    Quote Originally Posted by indiaholic View Post
    **** off asshole. Me and my family came out of subsistence farming due to globalisation. So stop preaching about **** you don't understand.
    That's lovely (not being sarcastic), but that still doesn't alter the fact that the Capitalists who push Globalisation have caused millions of Chinese workers to be poisoned by toxic chemicals such as benzene.


    The Pros And Cons Of Globalization

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecol.../#4ed98e7ccce0

  12. #16092
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Just to be pedantic, your consciousness doesn't control your body, rather your brain does. All your consciousness does is make you aware of what your brain has already decided to do sometime in the past.

    The idea of your consciousness being the decision maker, and making decisions on behalf of yourself is one of the best and grandest illusions found in Nature. And why at its most fundamental level the theory of Libertarianism is flawed.
    Your brain is just matter. Your consciousness controls your brain and without getting too deep into this discussion in a politics thread I would say that as someone who had been an atheist for about 20 years I have experienced (you can too) certain phenomena that dispels the notion that the material is all that exists. Regardless, your distinction and mine makes little difference to the grander point I was making about us controlling our bodies, whether you think that is a consciousness or a brain.


    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad View Post
    I'm trying to understand your actual point here and having some difficulty. Is your argument just that adhering to a value system that places collective interests above your own means that you've just been duped by someone else into believing in something which disadvantages you? That it's based on a "misguided notion" of doing "intrinsic good" at the sacrifice of self-interest, and that it just serves to benefit another actor? I feel like this is a common view for libertarians and you seem to be more or less saying it here, but I find it a really limited viewpoint.
    No, adhering to a value system that mandates collective interests above your own and others is simply an ideology that leads to subjugation and dependence. If you want to give your life up for the collective voluntarily that is your prerogative and I actually think is probably the most fulfilling way to live. Voting for a bureaucrat to expand the welfare state, for example, is not virtuous nor is it cost-effective.

    The very initiation of force and the disregard for reality by moralising that force is what leads us to think of government as a paternal/maternal entity doing good rather than a necessary evil that should be limited at all costs. People are too concerned with an end they agree with, which is why they continuously grow these entities, rather than the fact that they are subjugating others who may disagree. That's important because one day you will be the one subjugated. It doesn't just occur in a dictatorships or an oligarchy, it can happen in your everyday democracy. You don't have to create an adversary out of your neighbour if you live in a free country where people can engage/or not engage how they please, upto the point that they are directly harming another individual.

    Peter Singer has an explanation of the tragedy of the commons idea which basically goes like this: imagine you are deciding how to get to work, and you can either take the bus or drive your car. The bus might be the best choice from the "collective" point of view for various reasons, let's say pollution or whatever, some sort of "intrinsic good", but you prefer your car. You don't have to walk to the bus stop or wait for the bus, you already pay for the car anyway because you need it for other activities, and it's private and overall just more enjoyable. So you drive your car. So does everyone else in your suburb, for the same reasons, so the road is choked with traffic and it takes twice as long to get to work as it would if everyone just took the bus. So you decide to stop driving and take the bus, but everyone else is still driving so it makes no difference. It takes just as long to get to work and you have all the other disadvantages of the bus. So you say **** it, take your car every day, and spend an hour every morning sitting in traffic, and glare at everyone else on the road, knowing that if they just had a bit of perspective everything could be better. The only real solution to this problem is some sort of collective action - it doesn't necessarily have to be the state, but it is probably most likely to happen with the government. They can tax fuel to disincentivise driving, or use tax dollars to subsidise bus tickets so people take the bus instead. Or create express bus lanes and use force to ensure that non-buses don't use them so it ends up being faster on the bus. Or any number of other options. But without some sort of collective action, everyone loses even though everyone is acting in their own self-interest.

    This obviously doesn't apply to every situation and isn't a foolproof argument against all libertarian views but it is a real thing and it's a perfectly reasonable, self-interest oriented reason to support a state that prioritises collective interests over individual freedom. And of course there are also actors in this scenario who only take the bus because they don't drive, and they benefit even more from actions to curb the dominance of the driving choice citizens.
    The problem is the above is the kind of closed world people invent to justify the coercion of people. This is what makes it a delusion because such a summation of events is not reality. You could very simply make the argument that by virtue of speeding up transport (not all traffic in the day is the commute to and from work) we gain an efficiency that determines higher economic output, creation of wealth, which ultimately benefits us in a myriad of other ways, measurable or immeasurable. People tend to have differing reasons why they would use a car over public transport other than the fact that they don't like the former. We could literally dissect this very example endlessly just to show you how it is not straightforward like you paint it. And if you apply it to other areas it is a disaster: so many people are obese, should we regulate whether they are allowed to have sodas? People are imperfect and will live imperfect lives. Despite that or our governments, look at how far we have come.

    What is ironic is that you will hear this kind of argument from the left, and yet you will also hear other arguments where they justify government expenditure in the hope that something good comes out of the outlay (take NASA and the technologies gained from the pursuit of space travel). So people clearly understand that the future is not foreseeable (and often that leads to good things) yet at the same time use the unforeseeable nature of the future as a reason to instil fear to give government more power. As I've often said on this forum, government is just people in a building. The only thing that moves us forward in any real sense for the majority of these issues is human ingenuity. And human ingenuity thrives and evolves when we give people the benefit and responsibility to pursue their interests.

    What the internet has meant for our generation in terms of the dissemination of ideas and knowledge, the freedom movement, particularly in America, had the same kind of evolutionary effect. It is no coincidence people flocked to America for hundreds of years, despite the fact that there was no real welfare state and where income taxes didn't exist, and that is because it allowed people to become sovereign in the eyes of the law, enough so that they could pursue their happiness. And like the internet, once we start inventing reasons why we need to control it for the public good, we will also destroy the freedom this technology has brought us.

    And it cannot be any other way: free exchange of ideas is how we built language which we then used to improve our existence in a myriad of other ways. Let reality play out and we may be surprised by what we can achieve without the need to be told what to do and how to do it. Some people built companies in their garages, putting together circuits in novel ways no one else knew about, which gave us the very technology that you and I are using to communicate today. So many great things happen in our lifetimes because the person doing them didn't know they couldn't be done (let alone 'shouldn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    This has just been a round about way of saying "well I'm just more woke than you"
    I get that, and trust me I am not trying to virtue signal in this regard. I try not to use terminology most people would use in politics/economics because I think it attracts us to a partisan game, which is why these days I try elaborate on deeper truths that we can each see and identify with - although, there are certain distinctions that are unavoidable (i.e. the left). I was ignorant, and will always be ignorant. Intellectualising this is not enough, once you understand this in your bones you can live a good life. I can say I learned late, but happily I learned, and accepting reality is what has freed me from a lot of depression and anxiety. Things make sense and the malaise of society becomes a vividly perceptible thing. Every question I have these days revolves around the idea of reality and a fiction I am telling myself - it also makes it clear to you when others are playing this game too. I won't get it right all the time, the ego does interfere, but I am finding it beneficial as I think it allows our consciousness to grow in a healthy way. When you do things, accomplish things, overcome obstacles, etc, these are the things that strengthen your ability and will to live. You can't gain the strength without doing the hard yards just as you cannot succeed on the back of someone else's work in perpetuity. Once you understand that dynamic nature, uncertainty stops bothering you - the opportunity of life is enough of a gift - and when the fear is no longer present it becomes harder for others to take your power from you and others, even when they argue it for your own good.

    I'll STFU now
    Last edited by Ikki; 02-04-2017 at 01:09 AM.
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  13. #16093
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Shri's Avatar
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    NSFW, language warning:

    I am proud of this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
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    You are basically saying he would have made an amazing lawyer. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    No im saying he's partly cross-eyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    This has just been a round about way of saying "well I'm just more woke than you"
    i'm trying to imagine someone becoming a libertarian after taking lsd

    "OMG everyone is interconnected and part of a single unified being which is the universe looking back at itself across an infinite time span in billions of different lifeforms

    but **** everyone else, they can deal with their own ****"
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